End of 2018 RA balance changes

Hi, Jack!

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
lawANDorder
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by lawANDorder » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:29 am

My personal idea is a new buff from owning a hospital, which grants a 10% bounty on your own units killed.
We just made bounties an opt-in so it would be a weird step imo.
streamline the stealth mechanic since apparently 5 different traits of stealth exist
Please let's not change things that work fine just for streamlining. It seems logical that only dogs and other spies can detect disguised spies IMO. Same goes for cloaked vehicles which use sophisticated hardware to actually become invisible and thus require special detectors. The different traits have probably technical reasons.

We obviously can not give infantry detection vs disguised spies. So the streamlined alternative would be to require the same detectors for thieves as for spies, and that seems like a bad idea considering that
- spies are usually only a threat near your base and detection is much easier to set up there
- while spies can be detected by the player, thieves can not
- thieves are dangerous in the open too, where you usually have no detection.

> Maybe also increasing the cost from 500$ to 650$ or changing his capturing stun behaviour to take 2 second after freezing a unit to enter it like engineers external capturing.

I think the equal value fits good for these special units and should be streamlined. I don't really understand the reasoning for the other point and to me it would feel like a huge regression now that the buggy behaviour has finally beeen fixed!

It's good that testers have already found a lot of issues that can be fixed for the release and IMO the focus should be on the "does it work as expected part" for now instead of trying to refine the details of changes that are not really tested yet.

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Smitty
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by Smitty » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:28 pm

It appears we've got some consensus on 1) Tone down the hijacker and 2) Engi could use some extra oomph after the capture rework.

Since we've at least got another playtest cycle to work with I'm leaning towards reducing the hijacker speed to 71 (same as Tanya and heavy tank) and reducing the engineer capture time to 5 seconds. We can then see how these units perform in the second playtest and determine if they need further changes as some have requested.

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netnazgul
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by netnazgul » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:37 am

What about other balance test maps that we could play on playtest? Regarding Artillery.

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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by netnazgul » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:52 pm

Ok, some feedback regarding the new game state as well as the overall stuff:
- Mammonth tanks are much more potent now, to the point that they might be quite hard to stop by Allies even; we thought that reducing their rockets weapon range at least by 1 cell is to be done
- consider buffing Migs by doubling their damage but halving their ammo, so they will pack more punch per salvo and actually be able to one-shot stuff around
- bumping minelayers' health a bit? Given the rise of the tank meta, mines might be one of the counters to that
- 5-seconds capture time simply doesn't work for engineers - you just don't have enough time to do anything against it if you don't see it prematurely, a pack of engineers can capture a whole base in a single sweep; either we need to reduce engie price instead or just drop the idea of an expendable engineer for 1v1s
- soviets seem to get a lot of nice things this release, so we need some counter from allies. For example, allies T3 is now even more lackluster.

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netnazgul
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by netnazgul » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:51 am

Another pack of suggestions for allies:
- Mobile Gap Generator generating fog instead of shroud, thus not explicitly revealing itself on the map when explored map is enabled; maybe considering adding yet another cell of enemy units vision reduction, at least for far-seeing units;
- a slight buff to MRJ can also be a thing;
- maybe thinking of giving chrono tanks to all allied factions, but I don't see what to give to Germany in its place

lawANDorder
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by lawANDorder » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:54 pm

netnazgul wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:51 am
Another pack of suggestions for allies:
- Mobile Gap Generator generating fog instead of shroud, thus not explicitly revealing itself on the map when explored map is enabled; maybe considering adding yet another cell of enemy units vision reduction, at least for far-seeing units;
FYI, this terrible heresy is also discussed in #15364.

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netnazgul
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by netnazgul » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:40 pm

It's not heresy rather than another attempt to fix MGG (usual GG as well btw) behaviour in place to account for Fog of War, because it is a bit silly to have Explored Map option and Fog of war in the game, but Gap generators still exhibiting shroud instead, making it obvious for opponents that there is Gap generator.

This is a development of GG/MGG in the spirit of what it is - a device to mess with opponent's vision.

lawANDorder
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by lawANDorder » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:11 pm

I probably would not have linked the issue if I was serious about "heresy". ;)

I'm just not a fan of the idea. I understand the arguments but IMO it is yet another non-issue, it's something that works perfectly fine in teamgames and is used a lot there. I don't see any reason why (M)GG should be fundamentally changed if it works for everyone that uses it, aside from introducing the unit to competitive play where it does not exist (at the cost of everyone who is happy with the unit and uses it).

You probably want to push development of #15887 for this change.

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netnazgul
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by netnazgul » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:16 pm

Well, even better idea for MGGs to consider (as pointed out by one of Discord members) is to get a piece of code from SoScared and make MGGs ability a toggle.

lawANDorder
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by lawANDorder » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:58 pm

netnazgul wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:16 pm
Well, even better idea for MGGs to consider (as pointed out by one of Discord members) is to get a piece of code from SoScared and make MGGs ability a toggle.
That sounds interesting. You can test it by adding

Code: Select all

	CreatesShroud:
		Range: 6c0
		RequiresCondition: deploy
	GrantConditionOnDeploy:
		DeployedCondition: deploy
to MGG in mods/ra/rules/vehicles.yaml.

For proper behavior, we would need conditional RenderShroudCircle. Otherwise there is no way for the player to know if shroud generation is activated or not.

camundahl
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by camundahl » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:12 pm

Gap generator and MGG are almost pointless with the shroud effect, (besides limiting enemy unit sight range, which I'm not suggesting changing) because you can just V2 or arty the center of the shroud. Having it generate fog would make it much more mysterious, and it should also "un-reveal" buildings left in the area of effect. I feel it would be much harder to force target the center if it blends into the rest of the Fog.
That would make it much more stealthy and cool, in my opinion.

A "deploy-able" shroud also could be there for people that like the current version.

eskimo
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Re: End of 2018 RA balance changes

Post by eskimo » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:12 am

I think people forget under current conditions MGGs can act as a distraction, bait, or bluff. They do help with engagements, but given that theyre T3 and big engagements happen at earlier in the game they become more of a static turtle tool.

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