What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
lawANDorder
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by lawANDorder » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:49 am

JuiceBox wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:28 am
snowflakes. Please take your flower power someplace else. Its the internet, if you haven’t got the hide thick enough to read a few bad words then god be with you because you’re going to have a bad time in life. Shame on anyone giving this little care bear cuddles
Yes, there are weak persons like me who take things personally. I'll try to get better at it but note my intention is not to annoy people but to raise a point I consider(ed) important or at least worth to talk about, i.e. which conventions the players should follow.

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JuiceBox
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by JuiceBox » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:07 am

Bro you made me feel bad

Ps sorry for assuming your gender 8)

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avalach21
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by avalach21 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:19 pm

Guys, there are already "Trolling Allowed" and "Trolling Prohibited" servers available. Please just join the server of your liking :D

maceman
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by maceman » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:11 pm

Don't know how people who get upset with people using names from the second world war are playing a game based on an alternative second world war.

The best solution to these problems is to play farmville instead, or just take how some people act online with a pinch of salt, and stop reacting to the bad words which just feeds the people saying them.

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avalach21
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by avalach21 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:24 pm

maceman wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:11 pm
Don't know how people who get upset with people using names from the second world war are playing a game based on an alternative second world war.

The best solution to these problems is to play farmville instead, or just take how some people act online with a pinch of salt, and stop reacting to the bad words which just feeds the people saying them.
Lol the original game has Stalin in it as one of the main characters... and really IMO his name should rank higher on the offense-o-meter than Hitler's does all things considered. In fact Hitler himself is portrayed in the opening sequence of the game, and his character (or lack thereof thx to the chronosphere lol) is the basis for the entire backstory of the Red Alert universe. War and history have many discomforting thoughts and realities surrounding them, so if you are easily upset by such things, perhaps playing a game based on them isn't for you...

camundahl
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by camundahl » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:40 am

Honestly this is a dumb thread and should be removed or marked as satire.

givepeasachance
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by givepeasachance » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:12 pm

Thanks to anjew, lawANDorder and sleipnir for taking this seriously!
I'd like to comment a few points.

a) Looking at sleipnirs argument, the question is if the community and/or the programmers want to have a binding code of conduct, which might work best, if you can enforce it. Otherwise at least some people might read sth. and at least it doesnt catch them all by surprise if someone refueses to play with someone called "Donald J N*". Given the resonance this post already received, I do have my doubts about the feasability and how many people have any interest in changing the current hegemony of latent sexism, racism, antisemitism, probably ableism too and so on.

b) lawANDorder, you're proposing, if I understood correctly, that by establishing some guidelines for oneself the "word" will spread and people will start to ban or abandon servers with people showing the problematized behaviour. Right?

I dont know if it really works, if there is no articulation through offical channels, say with the newest installation. But, I think in some cases (see examples in this thread) its a matter of educational background and sensitivity if people actually understand what we're talking about. Plus beeing realistic, there is rarely an abundance of players and I think most are just happy if a map starts with no trolls and no one disconnecting after 5 minutes.
From my experience we're far off that anybody really cares about racism, sexism, homophobia etc. and would decide to leave the game. But sure, it has to start somewhere. And the "community" is small enough that some progress might actually be possible.

c) anjew, I understood your point, that its problematic if one reacts to user names and chat contents because the people do so, to provoke others and if one reacts it encourages them to continue. That might work with children, but here?

I think ignoring mainly helps establishing a reality in which words and meanings start to change. If people challenge the idea that the n*word is racist, there is something wrong - given that scenario everyone had a german ip, you can expect the knowledge of this, to a certain degree. If people continue making gay jokes and adressing every gamer with a "he" they're reproducing their heterosexual misogynistic world. In this situation with "Donald J N*" everyone was probably aware that its racist, but they didnt care, because probably their thinking itself is.


The rest of the comments is basically noise and shows that their respective authors simply can't or won't understand the problem I tried to sketch.
Well I cant help you if you really, really think that it is an argument or otherwise worth considering. For the sake of those two worlds it might be great, if you just open your own thread and continue to pat yourself on your shoulders.
But let's see what you were basically saying in trying to revoke my criticism:

a) making out who's the bigger baddie - yea we're doing Hitler injustice, big Time! I wonder what Mao thinks...
b) justifying using names of war criminals simply because its a war game - Youre fully into immersion arent you? Well bring on the Gulags and Concentration camps, raping, killing children and medical experiments then!
c) demanding to erase this thread simply because you think its dumb - well aint that an argument!
d) ignoring or simply misunderstanding the stated problem by making comparison to frightened children - that was actually two times
e) relativsm and reductionism: "some countries actually really like Hitler" - and where does this country live?

Interestingly the reactions are only centered on the nazi/racism issue, whereas I pointed to other problems as well. What does that say?

Anyways. Again I really appreciate the constructive thoughts and ideas on technical solutions !
Last edited by givepeasachance on Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

maceman
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by maceman » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:40 pm

So you think its worth the programmers or anyone else wasting their free time to create and manage a moderation system which its currently impossible to make work, just because you got upset about some kid in germany pretenting to be a nazi, and using some racist word in their name?

Its obvious what you are saying. Chat and player names are sometimes dragged from the toilet, and if you said half of it in a high street you'd be out cold in seconds.

My point is, you might be asking too much, and the best thing to do might be to just accept that some children are like this, and you have to deal with it from time to time in game. You can't control everything and force everyone to behave how you want.

P.S. Regarding war criminals. I didnt say its a war game so its ok to mention war criminals. I said the game is based on an alternative second world war. Hearing names mentioned from the second world war doesn't sound inapproprate imho. Especially considering what someone mentioned above - these war criminals are actually portrayed in the games story line.

Also: Dismissing any points out of hand which don't agree with you isn't very constructive. Especially if you misrepresent what they said like you did with me as mentioned above.

givepeasachance
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by givepeasachance » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:11 pm

Hey Macemen,
answered quote by quote
Also: Dismissing any points out of hand which don't agree with you isn't very constructive. Especially if you misrepresent what they said like you did with me as mentioned above.
Could you specify that further please? What did I dismiss with which I didnt agree? Please point out any constructive contribution I could've build on and didnt - seriously. I'll answer your point of misrepresentation last.
The way I read it, other than mainly the three authors I mentioned, everybody was in some form or another trying to make fun of the issue - at least thats how I understood it. Maybe I was wrong. Then I tried to work out, from my perspective, the structures or motives that were behind that. And of course I was not neutrally judging them.

maceman wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:40 pm
So you think its worth the programmers or anyone else wasting their free time to create and manage a moderation system which its currently impossible to make work, just because you got upset about some kid in germany pretenting to be a nazi, and using some racist word in their name?
Well as I said before it isnt just about a "kid in germany". Please acknowledge that. It doesnt happen in every game, but sexism, homophobia and racism do happen.
And no, as far as I remember I didnt call on anybody to program something. I just wanted to bring this topic on. What I wrote later was a response to what sleipnir wrote about technical possibilites. Nothing more.
My point is, you might be asking too much, and the best thing to do might be to just accept that some children are like this, and you have to deal with it from time to time in game. You can't control everything and force everyone to behave how you want.
Your last part got a bit too personal.

Again, for me its about language and names that stand for worldviews which basically reject that every person on earth/universe has the same rights and value (dont know if thats the most fitting word here). And that of course is a normative perspective, as it also is for all the Hermann G's and Donald J N's and people calling others faggots in the Red-Alter-Universe.
But I think a lot of people can go along with that universalistic version. And thats of course nothing I just recently invented to "force everyone to behave how [ I ] want".

Its not just about "some kids", its about the question if you want to be confronted with that shit or not. And if you want to leave people the room to express that they dont respect people on grounds of their gender, sexuality, ethniciyt and so on. I dont see any reason to play that down. Maybe even less because this game is fictionally related to historical events.
P.S. Regarding war criminals. I didnt say its a war game so its ok to mention war criminals. I said the game is based on an alternative second world war. Hearing names mentioned from the second world war doesn't sound inapproprate imho. Especially considering what someone mentioned above - these war criminals are actually portrayed in the games story line.
Well basically its a misunderstanding. Still I reakky cant understand why or in what context you are saying the following:"Don't know how people who get upset with people using names from the second world war are playing a game based on an alternative second world war".
I would still conclude the same. Whatever the context of this game is, using names of dictators and war criminals as a player name is a no go for me. Why would someone choose the name: to provoke maybe, but its also some sort of self-identification. you use the name for a purpose and usually you dont use names from things or persons you strongly reject. At least its hard for me to imagine this.
The best solution to these problems is to play farmville instead, or just take how some people act online with a pinch of salt, and stop reacting to the bad words which just feeds the people saying them"
Just wanted to highlight this and point out that this is also definitely not taking me seriously and mispresenting the topic.

All the Best,
Peas

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anjew
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by anjew » Sat Aug 18, 2018 4:41 pm

givepeasachance wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:12 pm
... That might work with children, but here?

I think ignoring mainly helps establishing a reality in which words and meanings start to change. If people challenge the idea that the n*word is racist, there is something wrong - given that scenario everyone had a german ip, you can expect the knowledge of this, to a certain degree. If people continue making gay jokes and adressing every gamer with a "he" they're reproducing their heterosexual misogynistic world. In this situation with "Donald J N*" everyone was probably aware that its racist, but they didnt care, because probably their thinking itself is.
You're right, ignoring isn't a long term solution but this is a problem not isolated to only OpenRA. However, it is right to challenge the definition of words. We actually do live in a reality where the meanings of words change over time. A look at the etymology of the word gay (and other similar words) show that definitions can change dramatically. The N word can be used in a non-offensive way. I feel it is better to change the meanings of these words rather than create words that are completely off limits.

Also the semantics and context of who and what is being said is important. There is a distinct difference between banter and straight-up remarks intended to ostracise a specific person or group. I imagine most people call themselves these names and say some these things to get a laugh and don't actually intend to perpetuate a heterosexual, misogynistic and caucasian world.
Last edited by anjew on Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sleipnir
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by Sleipnir » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:49 pm

This thread may be about offensive behaviour, but that does not mean it is on-topic to be offensive or attack people here. I have removed a series of posts that violate the forum rules against agressive behaviour and derailing topics.

maceman
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by maceman » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:42 pm

Ok my post got deleted. I didn't think it was offensive or aggressive but yea. I suppose trying to add some humor was a bad idea.

The suggestion was to have a "child safe mode" option in game which would hide all chat messages, and replace player names with numbers, or with random names from a list.

Players with this option on would need to be identifiable by others so they know chat messages wont be seen.

This might help appease people regularly suffering distress from player names and chat messages in game until a potential moderation or something similar is put in place to control everyone.

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Materianer
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by Materianer » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:35 pm

maceman wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:40 pm
just because you got upset about some kid in germany pretenting to be a nazi, and using some racist word in their name?
I'm also sometimes victim of racism, people calling me a nazi because i'm from germany.
My hint how to tread such people is just calling them racist or ignoring them.
You could of course troll them in several ways but i think ignoring and beating them on the battlefield is the best way.

That might get better with the accounts when you dont see where someone else is from.

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anjew
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by anjew » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:41 pm

Materianer wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:35 pm
That might get better with the accounts when you dont see where someone else is from.
People think this is a benefit when in reality its just another box people check before kicking someone from the game. Then if they don't kick them its time to make a smart remark about their locale.
For the past like, 4 years, (even prior to moving into a place with shitter internet) I've been getting "Australia ping, kick" while the orange England fella lags the game up. I believe this problem is amplified even more for people who are from more remote countries.

But I think one of the primary points that Sleipnir brought up is that this is a game that makes use of dedicated servers, the responsibility to deal with these issues ultimately falls upon the server owner, not the game development team.
This is the same case for most games that dont use a p2p type of connection to match players. In CSS or CSGO, you don't go to Valve and ask them to ban a racist on the community servers. They really only ban players who hack (via VAC) because its a violation of the ToS etc.

AMHOL
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Re: What to do about racism in OpenRA - Red Alert?

Post by AMHOL » Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:22 am

Seriously? You're all gonna let catgirls troll you again because he comes here with some leftie bullshit?

There's only one answer to this kind of shit, if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. If everyone has equal rights, then why do your rights to police my speech Trump my right to freedom of speech?
givepeasachance wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:12 pm
...
c) anjew, I had to laugh reading that youre coming from an culture where being rude is a convention. You come from Israel? :)
...
That's pretty racist man, someone ban this chick.

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