Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

I have played this game a couple of months. I saw that the developers want the communities opinions on matters on the Red Alert mod. Here are mine, summarized in a big and well structured post.

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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KOYK_GR
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by KOYK_GR » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:11 pm

what avalach21 said, also to add that this is also a reason for the chrono vortex to appear in the game. Because of the chrono paradox lore wise always.

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Wippie
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by Wippie » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:29 pm

I dont think its mentioned yet: Redeployable MCVs is a checkbox in the settings.

Imo the use of the Chrnosphere shouldnt be changed. But the thing the topic opener mentions is kind of relevant:
- opponent can go from complete turtle into basepush on a point of his choosing completely out of nowhere. Doesnt matter if its scouted or not. Army is out of position. You lose some seconds because people are microing elswhere. Instant gap gen, aa and tesla usually pop up with triple barracks making it pretty hard to Defend.

I dont think changing the chrono will solve this. Perhaps disabling to build defensive steuctures of allied mcvs is an interesting option

eskimo
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by eskimo » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:42 am

Wippie wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:29 pm
Perhaps disabling to build defensive structures off of allied mcvs is an interesting option
That's an interesting proposal and is a nice inbetween solution maybe. I do think defensive structures became an increasing neccessity to spam since the stance changes. Overall imo i'd like to see what the game would be like if con yards were weaker and defensive structures considerally more expensive.

However my own real opinion is to buff other things and not nerf, so the current players who like the game as is aren't detered from playing, which directly nerfing their enjoyed strats or unit does i believe.

Que_Boi_de_Rasa
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by Que_Boi_de_Rasa » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:10 pm

KOYK_GR wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:11 pm
what avalach21 said, also to add that this is also a reason for the chrono vortex to appear in the game. Because of the chrono paradox lore wise always.
If I remember correctly that is some kind of could which will create electric discharges against your units, if chronosphere is used too much. I have never seen one in game. Are you suggesting adding this to the game?

It seems like a very random mechanic. But maybe it could be tweaked to always appear only when an Allied attempts to chrono a MCV, in a way that would make it harder for the attacking to establish a base around the chronosphere spot in the first 30 seconds or so until the cloud disappears. Might give the defending player more time to react, but probably wouldn't do much difference when the attacking player puts up a barracks a build an engineer to quickly repair the MCV back to full health.

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avalach21
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by avalach21 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:57 pm

Que_Boi_de_Rasa wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:10 pm
KOYK_GR wrote:
Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:11 pm
what avalach21 said, also to add that this is also a reason for the chrono vortex to appear in the game. Because of the chrono paradox lore wise always.
If I remember correctly that is some kind of could which will create electric discharges against your units, if chronosphere is used too much. I have never seen one in game. Are you suggesting adding this to the game?

It seems like a very random mechanic. But maybe it could be tweaked to always appear only when an Allied attempts to chrono a MCV, in a way that would make it harder for the attacking to establish a base around the chronosphere spot in the first 30 seconds or so until the cloud disappears. Might give the defending player more time to react, but probably wouldn't do much difference when the attacking player puts up a barracks a build an engineer to quickly repair the MCV back to full health.


Pchote actually came up with a very similar idea in the PR discussion and combined it with a couple of my ideas :-)

going to copy and paste his response here:
Obviously a 3rd option as I previously mentioned, which to me seems the most obvious would be to just have the MCV return if it is in an undeployed state when the chronoshift's timer expires. This would be a cool slight buff because the player would then have the option of keeping it, or of microing to undeploy it in time if they would like to have it return to escape doom/to go deploy elsewhere etc.
another option could be that the con yard would take a 50% damage penalty after the chronosphere tries to suck it back and fails damaging it in the process?
I think this, paired with the MCV returning instead if it is undeployed, might be a winner 👍. It may be possible to render the (unused in OpenRA) chrono vortex effect over the conyard when the conyard damage is applied. This provides a clear visual indication that keeping it is a deliberate gameplay feature and not just a bug, it helps discourage shifting an MCV directly into an enemy base (unless they have left themselves really open), and it doesn't restrict the non-offensive uses of the strategy. The damage % also provides another balance knob that can be tweaked if necessary.
Link to original discussion: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/15300
Might give the defending player more time to react, but probably wouldn't do much difference when the attacking player puts up a barracks a build an engineer to quickly repair the MCV back to full health.
This is true but thats still an extra $500 investment and quite a bit of extra time waiting for the engineer (which could be sniped) and micro for the chronoshifter giving the defending player more time/options to deal with it. Also, the chrono vortex could have a time duration where if an engineer gets too close it will get zapped..

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Wippie
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by Wippie » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:37 pm

Ive read through the PR.

In my opinion there is a pull request to fix a legit issue, but gameplay wise its adopted by almost all of the players.

Secondly: the competitive scene. I dont think anyone chooses allies for chrono ability and/or chooses Germany for its advanced Chrono shift. Therefor a nerve doesnt seem the correct action.

The 3v3+ games however have a different dynamic, also fed by the mapdesign. Due to islands / ridges players are commited to use the Chronosphere on some of the more popular maps (e.g. Great divide) to access strategic parts of the map.

The FFA games have yet another different dynamic. Personally Ive started some FFA games as Soviet but its really annoying to play against 3 turtles building Gap gens, AA and tech buildings en mass. Sure you can beat them but it will take hours. Using the Chronosphere combined with Gps gives them an edge over soviet players

I think for team games specifically different solutions need to be explored. Perhaps restricting building defensive structures of allies is a good step.


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anjew
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by anjew » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:40 am

Wippie wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:37 pm
Secondly: the competitive scene. I dont think anyone chooses allies for chrono ability and/or chooses Germany for its advanced Chrono shift. Therefor a nerve doesnt seem the correct action.
This change is actually a buff to the chrono shift strategy, even with the 50% damage. Now the MCV will have the option of returning back after being chronoshifted and deploying.

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avalach21
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by avalach21 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:54 pm

anjew wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:40 am
Wippie wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:37 pm
Secondly: the competitive scene. I dont think anyone chooses allies for chrono ability and/or chooses Germany for its advanced Chrono shift. Therefor a nerve doesnt seem the correct action.
This change is actually a buff to the chrono shift strategy, even with the 50% damage. Now the MCV will have the option of returning back after being chronoshifted and deploying.
exactly. it's a slight buff mixed with a slight nerf. Hopefully they offset balance-wise, but both of them seem to discourage an everexpanding chrono tumor in the back of someones base which seems to be what pchote is most concerned about.

eskimo
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by eskimo » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:16 pm

Looks awesome, nice work.

Que_Boi_de_Rasa
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by Que_Boi_de_Rasa » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:43 pm

Very nice! :) It is true it is a buff if it can now go back after deploying. It will probably lead to baiting tactics where players will chrono, to make the enemy panic and try to move some army home in order to defend, and if they notice they don't respond, they will stay there and establish a base and do as much damage as possible.

But I like the change. It makes it less desirable to deploy and stay til after chronoshift. And players trying to use chronoshift to build a fast proxy barracks and a couple of turrets behind enemy lines, then get out is a lot more interesting gameplay wise than somebody who is simply building a turrets and attempt to establish a base in the opponents base. Now there is the aspect of "Should I get out, or be greedy and stay, even it though might be risky?".

I would love for this to be tested! How the aspect of the change will offset balance-wise will be interesting to see.

With the way you implemented it, I take back what I said about the engineer. I thought it would work a bit differently.

Seeing that you managed to make the chronoshift stay on the MCV after deploying. I would also like for invulnerability to have the same effect. I consider it quite inconsistent that it disappears after transformation, and I see no reason why it shouldn't stick after deploy (especially if this gets implemented and chrono effect will stay).

Que_Boi_de_Rasa
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by Que_Boi_de_Rasa » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:53 pm

Also, is there any sound effect for the chrono vortex? :) Would be nice to have some kind of tornado sound, to make the effect more dramatic.

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Sleipnir
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by Sleipnir » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:31 pm

Que_Boi_de_Rasa wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:43 pm
I would also like for invulnerability to have the same effect.
Yes, this is also fixed in the same PR.

NerevarII
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by NerevarII » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:46 pm

Only commenting because it's relevent:

You've played my CG420 maps, what did you think of those? They remedy almost every issue you've mentioned, as well as others. It might get confusing as I released many different versions, but I can help clarify anything you don't understand or anything you feel is unblanaced or doesn't make sense :)

Also relevent, because:

" Que_Boi_de_Rasa wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:21 pm
Allied AA-turrets

The upcoming playtest (Changelog link) will be making some balance tweaks to nerf AA and buff SAM. I have no idea whether this will be enough, but it seems like a start."

Unfortunately, that won't be enough. It'll do some good, but it won't fix the problem. Something that would be more cost/time efficient would be making other slight changes to that, or increasing the already-present changes for the next release. Obviously, it's your call. I'm just sharing a way to help speed thing's along. :)

.

.

As for everything else discussed here, it seems like progress is going well, and thing's are working out, which is awesome!

Que_Boi_de_Rasa
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Re: Thoughts from a player playing Red Alert for a couple of months

Post by Que_Boi_de_Rasa » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:16 pm

NerevarII wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:46 pm
Only commenting because it's relevent:

You've played my CG420 maps, what did you think of those? They remedy almost every issue you've mentioned, as well as others. It might get confusing as I released many different versions, but I can help clarify anything you don't understand or anything you feel is unblanaced or doesn't make sense :)
Yes. I have played that mod a couple of times.

The games I have played, I usually get demolished by Allied navy. The destroyers have so much range they feel like cruisers. I later figured out that the naval turret is supposed to counter that.

If I also remember correctly, MiGs have even more speed and can attack air. They seem really strong, maybe a bit too much, when they can run away from so many projectiles. But I haven't played enough to know for sure.

Cannot comment on the balance of things, as I don't have enough experience. What I can say is that it plays quite a bit differently from vanilla OpenRA. And I prefer to play vanilla OpenRA because then I have a better understanding of what I am up against. :)

I think it is nice that people can create custom mods, to tweak various aspects of the gameplay. And I think it is nice that you have done that, and implemented various ideas (like naval gun for example).

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