Redesigning and Balancing TD

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Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Materianer
Posts: 161
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:27 am

Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by Materianer » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:53 pm

ZxGanon wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:32 pm
Updated my mod to 1.2. Changes have been marked as green that refers to Patch 1.2.

Conyard:
- Cost from 4000$ to 3000$

Power Plant:
- Cost from 500$ to 400$
To improve the early game.

Advanced Power Plant:
- Cost from 800$ to 700$

Refinery:
- Storage capacity from 700$ to 1000$

Aistrip:
- Buildtime from 48 secs to 40 secs
This change was made to compensate the 12 second delivery delay of the Plane.
Nod should be finally at a competitive fair point with this change.


Repair Station:
- Energy cost from -30 to -10
- repairing buffed: HpPerStep: 1000 and Interval: 7
After the removal of the prerequisite on the MCV it lost it´s reason to be there so I made it easier to build it without going low power.
The repair buff was a nice idea by Orb.


Communication Center:
- cost from 1000$ to 1500$
This change will definately slow down the game by a lot and also will shift the usage of A10 a bit through out a game.
A higher cost T2 prerequisite will not only slow down the A10 usage but everything else unlocked with it and above aswell.


Advanced Communications Center:
- Cost increased from 1800$ to 2000$
- Energy cost decreased from -150 to -100
- HP increased from 130000 to 210000

Temple of Nod:
- Reveals shroud increased from 6c0 to 10c0
The changes to both Superweapons were made because both provide the 3rd tech level and superweapons.
Why should such buildings be handled different because of the superweapons themselves.
Both have enormous strength in their own right (Ion Cannon obliterates armies in an instant
while the nuke levels bases)


All defences:
- normalized their building speed to match their cost
This change was necessary to finally stop instant snowballing after winning a fight to put up
some emergency defences to hold out longer until replenishing your own army.


Guard Tower:
- Requires now Power Plant instead of Barracks/Hand of Nod to be build
This change will finally bring more variety to builds rather than forcing you to open barracks to
defend against the current (very) strong allins that exist in TD.
- reverted requirement from Power Plant to Barracks
- Armor set from wood to heavy
- cost from 600$ to 500$
My previous attempt buffed factory/airstrip openers which caused me to redo this change into something different.
I changed the armor type of the Guard Tower and decreased it´s cost to first buff it against infantry (which it is supposed to counter while nerfing it against vehicles that carry anti armor weapons to clean up it´s weird behaviour. This should promote barracks openers but I´m pretty sure factory/aristrip are still the way to go opener on most maps.


Turret:
- Requirement from Barracks to Factory/Airstrip
This change was made to first give Factory/Airstrip openers some possibilities to defend against early vehicle raids (that usually end the game in 3 minutes) which is ultimately boring and has been proven multiple times especially through out the whole TDGL (next to broken APC´s). I know this change promotes said openers more than Barracks first but this change also makes sense to get anti vehicle turret with vehicle production and Guard Tower with infantry production.

SAM Site:
- reduced cost from 650$ to 600$


Obelisk of Light:
- From T3 (Temple) to T2 (Radar)
The Advanced Guard Tower of GDI is overall far more potent than the Obelisk.
The GDI Tower is superior in cost and energy, being able to hit Air while also strong against all ground units.
If the Obelisk is too powerful then I will reduce it's attack speed. (pretty sure I dont have to
since a camping Nod player is far weaker than an aggressive one since Nod has to swarm the map to surivive)


Advanced Guard Tower:
- increased cost from 1000$ to 1250$
- restored it´s weapon from the original means it now has a 2-burst missile weapon with longer reload
This I adjusted to first of all nerf the AGTW against ground units but buff its behaviour against Air. The AGTW is an overperforming defence structure
especially in team games. It is stated to have a weakness against infantry but that is not the case. It´s damage and spammability was outshining the Obelisk of Light.


Rocket Soldier (E3):
- Movement Speed increased from 42 to 56 to match the minigunner
The current meta annihilates the use of Rocket Soldiers outside of APC´s.
Also the slower a unit in OpenRA is the worse it the microability.
This change should finally clean up this mess.


Flamethrower (E4):
- Increased movementspeed from 56 to 71
In original TD the Flamethrower was as fast as the grenadier so I made them even.
In my opinion the Flamethrower is an underwhelming unit.
If this change was a mistake I can easily readjust.


Engineer (E6):
- Now has external capture and set to 7 seconds
As soon as the new code hits were engineer locking is removed it will also be implemented
and the capture time will be set to 5 seconds. (So it works like in KW and RA3)


Commando:
- Cost from 2000$ to 1400$
Another unit that is very underwhelming. Due to it´s equivalent cost of 20 Minigunners who are just better so with
1400$ in might see use outside of dropping or to clean up Chemical Troopers (even though 20 Minigunners did a better job).


MCV:
- Decreased cost from 4000$ to 3000$
- Buld time reset to match the cost (72 seconds)
- Removed Repair Station as the requirement (still requires Radar)
- HP reduced from 120000 to 60000
- Shroud reveal increased from 8c0 to 9c0
Due to the fact that the 4k MCV is just impossible to build (especially 1v1) without dying to counter attacks the cost of
the MCV have been set to 3000$. Back than when 2000$ MCV was a horrible meta I can understand being scared of by this but I assure
you the 3K MCV has been tested already and it is still not possible to go for a second MCV early on (till 7th minute) without
dying to an immediate response from your opponent that might even use 2xFactory/Airstrip at that point. Even the removal of
the Repair Station hasn´t improved this strategy but people are no encouraged to rebuild their MCV when they lost the first one.
The HP has been cut in half due to the infinite possiblities and MCV allin can possibly offer in the early stage of the game.
It has not been abused to an extend yet due to people taking a like to go for macro games rather than ending it quick but
these allins are kinda impossible to hold if you dont do the same move. This kind of gameplay is toxic and I feel like
shouldn´t be possible. If ppl are scared of losing the MCV tio Ion Cannons than they should take in acocunt that the Nuke
can even destroy the Conyard itself. Also wasting your Ion Cannon on an MCV rather than annihilating a big chunk of the opponents
army will lead into dieing to a counter push. The vision range has been increased to immediately deploy your MCV if enemy units
appear since the HP was cut in half.

- undone HP nerf and vision buff
My idea to nerf the Monstertrucking of MCV´s has proven successful but also had a negative sight effect of the game become boring and stale.
In short: it nerfed allins so hard that it removed build orders which I dont appreciate. I want TD to become a competitive faster paced OpenRA game
with strategic decision making rather than snowballing limited tankbattles out of one base the entire game.
Also this might cause "MCV-Monstertrucking" to reappear but first I´m the only one doing that atm and 2nd I´m pretty sure ppl will find a counter.


Harvester:
- Increased Movement Speed from 85 to 100
- Readjusted buildtime from 27 secs to 24 secs
This change was an idea of Orb to encourage long distance harvesting and I like this idea aswell.
Readjusted the buildtime due to my politics of reducing all the customized buildtimes.


Rocket Launcher:
- Renamed it to MLRS
- Increase damage against None from 24 to 40
This thing is way weaker than the Nod artillery in any regards but killing Light Armor. When players (especially Nod players)
perform heavy infantry pushes against GDI...well let´s just say GDI has a very very hard time dealing with those. So this buff
should help out GDI on that regard while also improvng the MLRS.
Oh yeah btw I renamed it because it feels good man.


Stealth Tank:
- Cost from 900$ to 950$
- reduced damage from 6000 to 4500
- increased rocket count from 2 to 4
- speeded up the burst from 10 to 8
The Stealth Tank always felt to me like a stealthed Nod Attack Bike and that is just not satisfying enough for a member of Kane
so I took an example of how the modern CnC´s handled the stank by increasing the rocket count to let it not only feel more powerful
but also increasing its value. If the Stank will overperform I might undo this change but for now I wanna see how this is going.


Chinook:
- Cost from 750$ to 600$
To encourage more dropplay.

Apache Longbow:
- Increased attack range of the gorund weapon from 4c0 to 5c0
With this change it finally matches the attack range of the Orca. Im still pretty sure the Apache is underperforming.
It is an excellent Orca killer and okay against infantry and Artillery (it should be now better against those) but
the Orca is still a way better tool to use.


Reworked the Oil Derricks:
- Cash Tick Amount from 25$ to 50$
- Cash Tick Interval from 125 to 200
- Now upon capturing provides 250$ (everytime you capture and recapture)
In theory provides a bit more money over time while also finally able to deny bigger intervals when killing the structure.
Refund of 250$ to speed up the gameplay with Barracks opener (which is currently far inferior to Factory/Airstrip opener).
Due to the change of the Guard Tower and other changes the Barracks opener should not become the way to go strategy while
also improving other openers beside Factory/Airstrip.


Removed the damage of exploding Husks:
- Idea of Anjew and Orb and I like that too

A10 Strike:
- Reduced damage of the MG against Light Armor from 100% to 30%
This should now make sense (means flesh torn apart by a Machine Gun while Armor surviving it)
while also rebalancing this imba ability that can literally turn the game upside down.


Changes that I might do in the future:
- removal of the build penalty between buildings since this is just unnecessary
- redoing the Mobile SAM of Nod since it is just not necessary.
It outshines Apaches, Attackbikes and even Sam Sites and Stanks so why not restoring the original Napalm Rockets and make it T3?
Nice to see someone working on this game.
I like most of the changes and some are really needed and overdue.
The powerplant cost reduction for example, its happening too fast that you run out of money in early game is was what i often felt like, that should make it a bit better.
The repair pad changes sounds like fun.
AIrstrike nerf is needed
Does stealth tanks with its speeded burst now have a better chance to hit moving targets?
3k mcv loooooooong time overdue, even with 2k cost it was risky to make multible mcv's. I know to that time the balance was quite diffrent, lighttankspam and so on. But
i'd say you do nothing wrong when you got a bit under 3k even without tested it ;)
I will do some testgames on your maps, if i find someone to play with.
I hope TD will get a solid number of players back one day, this is a step into the right direction imo ♥ ♥ ♥

User avatar
ZxGanon
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:40 pm

Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by ZxGanon » Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:38 pm

Updated my mod to 1.3. Changes have been marked as green that refers to Patch 1.2 and red for Patch 1.3 changes.

Conyard:
- Cost from 4000$ to 3000$
- BaseProvider: Cooldown: 75 --> 0
With the removals of the BasePRovider cooldown you will no longer have a penalty upon placing a structure.
This change is overdue and finally has to be made. I guess people feared that defense structure spamm might become a thing in TD but seriously you cannot win a game by turtelling your base. TD is a very fast game based arround building units and striking the opponent where it hurts most. Such a penalty also hurts people playing in 1v1 where fast players (like me) screw themselves by placing the less important structure first than having to wait to place (for instance) a refinery or another factory.


Power Plant:
- Cost from 500$ to 400$
To improve the early game.

Advanced Power Plant:
- Cost from 800$ to 700$

Refinery:
- Storage capacity from 700$ to 1000$

Aistrip:
- Buildtime from 48 secs to 40 secs
This change was made to compensate the 12 second delivery delay of the Plane.
Nod should be finally at a competitive fair point with this change.


Repair Station:
- Energy cost from -30 to -10
- repairing buffed: HpPerStep: 1000 and Interval: 7
After the removal of the prerequisite on the MCV it lost it´s reason to be there so I made it easier to build it without going low power.
The repair buff was a nice idea by Orb.


Communication Center:
- cost from 1000$ to 1500$
This change will definately slow down the game by a lot and also will shift the usage of A10 a bit through out a game.
A higher cost T2 prerequisite will not only slow down the A10 usage but everything else unlocked with it and above aswell.


Advanced Communications Center:
- Cost increased from 1800$ to 2000$
- Energy cost decreased from -150 to -100
- HP increased from 130000 to 210000

Temple of Nod:
- Reveals shroud increased from 6c0 to 10c0
The changes to both Superweapons were made because both provide the 3rd tech level and superweapons.
Why should such buildings be handled different because of the superweapons themselves.
Both have enormous strength in their own right (Ion Cannon obliterates armies in an instant
while the nuke levels bases)


All defences:
- normalised their building speed to match their cost
This change was necessary to finally stop instant snowballing after winning a fight to put up
some emergency defences to hold out longer until replenishing your own army.


Guard Tower:
- Requires now Power Plant instead of Barracks/Hand of Nod to be build
This change will finally bring more variety to builds rather than forcing you to open barracks to
defend against the current (very) strong allins that exist in TD.
- reverted requirement from Power Plant to Barracks
- Armor set from wood to heavy
- cost from 600$ to 500$
My previous attempt buffed factory/airstrip openers which caused me to redo this change into something different.
I changed the armor type of the Guard Tower and decreased it´s cost to first buff it against infantry (which it is supposed to counter while nerfing it against vehicles that carry anti armor weapons to clean up it´s weird behaviour. This should promote barracks openers but I´m pretty sure factory/aristrip are still the way to go opener on most maps.


Turret:
- Requirement from Barracks to Factory/Airstrip
This change was made to first give Factory/Airstrip openers some possibilities to defend against early vehicle raids (that usually end the game in 3 minutes) which is ultimately boring and has been proven multiple times especially through out the whole TDGL (next to broken APC´s). I know this change promotes said openers more than Barracks first but this change also makes sense to get anti vehicle turret with vehicle production and Guard Tower with infantry production.

SAM Site:
- reduced cost from 650$ to 600$


Obelisk of Light:
- From T3 (Temple) to T2 (Radar)
The Advanced Guard Tower of GDI is overall far more potent than the Obelisk.
The GDI Tower is superior in cost and energy, being able to hit Air while also strong against all ground units.
If the Obelisk is too powerful then I will reduce it's attack speed. (pretty sure I dont have to
since a camping Nod player is far weaker than an aggressive one since Nod has to swarm the map to surivive)


Advanced Guard Tower:
- increased cost from 1000$ to 1250$
- restored it´s weapon from the original means it now has a 2-burst missile weapon with longer reload
This I adjusted to first of all nerf the AGTW against ground units but buff its behaviour against Air. The AGTW is an overperforming defence structure
especially in team games. It is stated to have a weakness against infantry but that is not the case. It´s damage and spammability was outshining the Obelisk of Light.


Rocket Soldier (E3):
- Movement Speed increased from 42 to 56 to match the minigunner
The current meta annihilates the use of Rocket Soldiers outside of APC´s.
Also the slower a unit in OpenRA is the worse the microability becomes.
This change should finally clean up this mess.


Flamethrower (E4):
- Increased movementspeed from 56 to 71
In original TD the Flamethrower was as fast as the grenadier so I made them even.
In my opinion the Flamethrower is an underwhelming unit.
If this change was a mistake I can easily readjust.


Engineer (E6):
- Now has external capture and set to 7 seconds
As soon as the new code hits were engineer locking is removed it will also be implemented
and the capture time will be set to 5 seconds. (So it works like in KW and RA3)


Commando:
- Cost from 2000$ to 1400$
Another unit that is very underwhelming. Due to it´s equivalent cost of 20 Minigunners who are just better so with
1400$ in might see use outside of dropping or to clean up Chemical Troopers (even though 20 Minigunners did a better job).


MCV:
- Decreased cost from 4000$ to 3000$
- Buld time reset to match the cost (72 seconds)
- Removed Repair Station as the requirement (still requires Radar)
- HP reduced from 120000 to 60000
- Shroud reveal increased from 8c0 to 9c0
Due to the fact that the 4k MCV is just impossible to build (especially 1v1) without dying to counter attacks the cost of
the MCV have been set to 3000$. Back than when 2000$ MCV was a horrible meta I can understand being scared of by this but I assure
you the 3K MCV has been tested already and it is still not possible to go for a second MCV early on (till 7th minute) without
dying to an immediate response from your opponent that might even use 2xFactory/Airstrip at that point. Even the removal of
the Repair Station hasn´t improved this strategy but people are no encouraged to rebuild their MCV when they lost the first one.
The HP has been cut in half due to the infinite possiblities and MCV allin can possibly offer in the early stage of the game.
It has not been abused to an extend yet due to people taking a like to go for macro games rather than ending it quick but
these allins are kinda impossible to hold if you dont do the same move. This kind of gameplay is toxic and I feel like
shouldn´t be possible. If ppl are scared of losing the MCV tio Ion Cannons than they should take in acocunt that the Nuke
can even destroy the Conyard itself. Also wasting your Ion Cannon on an MCV rather than annihilating a big chunk of the opponents
army will lead into dieing to a counter push. The vision range has been increased to immediately deploy your MCV if enemy units
appear since the HP was cut in half.

- undone HP nerf and vision buff
My idea to nerf the Monstertrucking of MCV´s has proven successful but also had a negative sight effect of the game become boring and stale.
In short: it nerfed allins so hard that it removed build orders which I dont appreciate. I want TD to become a competitive faster paced OpenRA game
with strategic decision making rather than snowballing limited tankbattles out of one base the entire game.
Also this might cause "MCV-Monstertrucking" to reappear but first I´m the only one doing that atm and 2nd I´m pretty sure ppl will find a counter.


Harvester:
- Increased Movement Speed from 85 to 100
- Readjusted buildtime from 27 secs to 24 secs
This change was an idea of Orb to encourage long distance harvesting and I like this idea aswell.
Readjusted the buildtime due to my politics of reducing all the customized buildtimes.


Rocket Launcher:
- Renamed it to MLRS
- Increased damage against None from 24 to 40
This thing is way weaker than the Nod artillery in any regards but killing Light Armor. When players (especially Nod players)
perform heavy infantry pushes against GDI...well let´s just say GDI has a very very hard time dealing with those. So this buff
should help out GDI on that regard while also improvng the MLRS.
Oh yeah btw I renamed it because it feels good man.


Stealth Tank:
- Cost from 900$ to 950$
- reduced damage from 6000 to 4500
- increased rocket count from 2 to 4
- speeded up the burst from 10 to 8
The Stealth Tank always felt to me like a stealthed Nod Attack Bike and that is just not satisfying enough for a member of Kane
so I took an example of how the modern CnC´s handled the stank by increasing the rocket count to let it not only feel more powerful
but also increasing its value. If the Stank will overperform I might undo this change but for now I wanna see how this is going.

- removed audio when cloaking
Another change to help Nod finally disguising their unit´s that are supposed to be "unseen". That stanks announce themselves on the battlefield not only gives away the fact that your opponent just produced a Stank not it also reveals that your opponent reaches T3 and is able to nuke you in a few minutes. This change is necessary to let Stanks finally unleash their full potential by striking because you dont see them coming.

Chinook:
- Cost from 750$ to 600$
To encourage more dropplay.

Apache Longbow:
- Increased attack range of the gorund weapon from 4c0 to 5c0
With this change it finally matches the attack range of the Orca. Im still pretty sure the Apache is underperforming.
It is an excellent Orca killer and okay against infantry and Artillery (it should be now better against those) but
the Orca is still a way better tool to use.


Reworked the Oil Derricks:
- Cash Tick Amount from 25$ to 50$
- Cash Tick Interval from 125 to 200
- Now upon capturing provides 250$ (everytime you capture and recapture)
In theory provides a bit more money over time while also finally able to deny bigger intervals when killing the structure.
Refund of 250$ to speed up the gameplay with Barracks opener (which is currently far inferior to Factory/Airstrip opener).
Due to the change of the Guard Tower and other changes the Barracks opener should not become the way to go strategy while
also improving other openers beside Factory/Airstrip.


Removed the damage of exploding Husks:
- Idea of Anjew and Orb and I like that too

A10 Strike:
- Reduced damage of the MG against Light Armor from 100% to 30%
This should now make sense (means flesh torn apart by a Machine Gun while Armor surviving it)
while also rebalancing this imba ability that can literally turn the game upside down.


Added a new GainsExperience System:
This link provides you with all the information that you need to understand what has been changed: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/15164
In short:
- removed movement speed buffs
- removed accuracy buffs
- flattened ressistance, damage and attackspeed buffs
- increased healing on heroic status since the old one was just way too weak and pathetic
- old system had 4 ranks while the new one has only 3 (Rank 1, Rank 2 and Rank 4 (Heroic))
- everyone (not just yourself) can see the veterancy on your units
This change has been done in Shattered Paradise and increased the depth of gameplay and performance.
Units now have an easier time to rank up while also being able to see how experienced the units of your opponent are.
This will also now enable Vehicles to finally achieve more than just Rank 1 since they finally can trade off quicker.
The buffs have been flattened so it is easier to understand for everyone how much stronger a unit becomes by ranking up.


Changes that I might do in the future:
- redoing the Mobile SAM of Nod since it is just not necessary.
It outshines Apaches, Attackbikes and even Sam Sites and Stanks so why not restoring the original Napalm Rockets and make it T3?
Last edited by ZxGanon on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
EnkerZan
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:18 am

Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by EnkerZan » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:27 am

Question, do you plan on doing anything about the damage of the on death explosion of the flame tank? I thought it was utterly retarded that when it explodes next to other flame tanks they all die like a group of grenadiers.

User avatar
Major Kusanagi Motoko
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:35 am

Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by Major Kusanagi Motoko » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:55 pm

"full band" perspectives on balance adjustments seem promising, looking forward to more testing on mod maps, good work ZxGannon.
Last edited by Major Kusanagi Motoko on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Major Kusanagi Motoko
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:35 am

Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by Major Kusanagi Motoko » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:38 am

ZxGanon wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:38 pm
Updated my mod to 1.3. Changes have been marked as green that refers to Patch 1.2 and red for Patch 1.3 changes.

Conyard:
- Cost from 4000$ to 3000$
- BaseProvider: Cooldown: 75 --> 0

should bring back several of the lost dynamics in TD.

Repair Station:
- Energy cost from -30 to -10
- repairing buffed: HpPerStep: 1000 and Interval: 7

They almost insta-repair mediums or harvs, in combination of MCV after Coms only a very fine idea as it makes an FOB repair pad a much more viable option, and i would like to see more players placing a Pad at the front lines and using it.


Communication Center:
- cost from 1000$ to 1500$
This change will definately slow down the game by a lot and also will shift the usage of A10 a bit through out a game.
A higher cost T2 prerequisite will not only slow down the A10 usage but everything else unlocked with it and above aswell.


And interfere econ wise with early tech rush builds :) In other Words: a top priority change that should be observed carefully on how it plays out.
I like the idea to make the coms an even higher priority target and must have, and i estimate it to be most likely that with this change more defences should be provided vs Air/A10 combo - snipes. Especially for team games.


Guard Tower:
- Requires now Power Plant instead of Barracks/Hand of Nod to be build
This change will finally bring more variety to builds rather than forcing you to open barracks to
defend against the current (very) strong allins that exist in TD.

... and removes mind plays (outguessing/scouting of the opponent) and might streamline WF/AS opener

Turret:
- Requirement from Barracks to Factory/Airstrip
This change was made to first give Factory/Airstrip openers some possibilities to defend against early vehicle raids (that usually end the game in 3 minutes) which is ultimately boring and has been proven multiple times especially through out the whole TDGL (next to broken APC´s). I know this change promotes said openers more than Barracks first but this change also makes sense to get anti vehicle turret with vehicle production and Guard Tower with infantry production.

Makes sense and might put an end to lame Ref- & WF-Blocks, good idea, IF you aren't able to have a Guard Tower (GT) already after 1st PP, since this might move TD even more into pure early vehicle openers. It suits most plays and might be popular, but also lowers the importance of early infantry plays.

Turrets (CT) miss T0 vehicles, Guard Towers don't. So my suggestion is to keep the GT after Rax/Hand and move only the CT to after WF/AS, keep GT after Rax/Hand.


SAM Site:
- reduced cost from 650$ to 600$


Seems necessary as explained on CommsCenter above.

Advanced Guard Tower:
- increased cost from 1000$ to 1250$
- restored it´s weapon from the original means it now has a 2-burst missile weapon with longer reload
This I adjusted to first of all nerf the AGTW against ground units but buff its behaviour against Air. The AGTW is an overperforming defence structure
especially in team games. It is stated to have a weakness against infantry but that is not the case. It´s damage and spammability was outshining the Obelisk of Light.


"it might take more than 25% price increase, the longer reload delay option on the other hand could be an interesting idea to test. AGT's are clearly overpreforming since years and the MCV 4k "2x sky-step" caused way more problems everywhere else, as resolving a very broken defense structure"

Rocket Soldier (E3):
- Movement Speed increased from 42 to 56 to match the minigunner
The current meta annihilates the use of Rocket Soldiers outside of APC´s.
Also the slower a unit in OpenRA is the worse the microability becomes.
This change should finally clean up this mess.


Fundamentally breaks the law of dps/armor vs movement speed. This change won't work :) One can't say the mammoth tank should be as fast as a medium :)

Flamethrower (E4):
- Increased movementspeed from 56 to 71
In original TD the Flamethrower was as fast as the grenadier so I made them even.
In my opinion the Flamethrower is an underwhelming unit.
If this change was a mistake I can easily readjust.


Flamers are being dropped and aren't underwhelming, they outperform Grens, they bust buildings quickly, not sure why changing a unit which is fine, even considered OP in combination with the no_arty_explode fix.

Commando:
- Cost from 2000$ to 1400$
Another unit that is very underwhelming. Due to it´s equivalent cost of 20 Minigunners who are just better so with
1400$ in might see use outside of dropping or to clean up Chemical Troopers (even though 20 Minigunners did a better job).


It is possible to test and figure out a price based on 1 commando vs other infantry. While testing i got different results though when up scaling the amount of units. 3-5 or more commandos vs the multiple of 2k, 1.7k, 1.4k. value worth of different other infantry... Seems this behavior isn't linear, so can't really say. What is important though is that the Hitshape of buildings (C4 placement on walls) removed all common bugs with the Commando and with the increased range of fire it makes them already pretty much as they should be. My guess would be to not go below 1400 or try a bit higher... needs more testing.

MCV:
- Decreased cost from 4000$ to 3000$
- Buld time reset to match the cost (72 seconds)
- Removed Repair Station as the requirement (still requires Radar)
- HP reduced from 120000 to 60000
- Shroud reveal increased from 8c0 to 9c0
Due to the fact that the 4k MCV is just impossible to build (especially 1v1) without dying to counter attacks the cost of the MCV have been set to 3000$. Back than when 2000$ MCV was a horrible meta I can understand being scared of by this but I assure you the 3K MCV has been tested already and it is still not possible to go for a second MCV early on (till 7th minute) without dying to an immediate response from your opponent that might even use 2xFactory/Airstrip at that point. Even the removal of the Repair Station hasn´t improved this strategy but people are no encouraged to rebuild their MCV when they lost the first one.
The HP has been cut in half due to the infinite possiblities and MCV allin can possibly offer in the early stage of the game.
It has not been abused to an extend yet due to people taking a like to go for macro games rather than ending it quick but these allins are kinda impossible to hold if you dont do the same move. This kind of gameplay is toxic and I feel like shouldn´t be possible. If ppl are scared of losing the MCV tio Ion Cannons than they should take in acocunt that the Nuke can even destroy the Conyard itself. Also wasting your Ion Cannon on an MCV rather than annihilating a big chunk of the opponents army will lead into dieing to a counter push. The vision range has been increased to immediately deploy your MCV if enemy units appear since the HP was cut in half.

- undone HP nerf and vision buff.

agreed

My idea to nerf the Monstertrucking of MCV´s has proven successful but also had a negative sight effect of the game become boring and stale.
In short: it nerfed allins so hard that it removed build orders which I dont appreciate.
I want TD to become a competitive faster paced OpenRA game
with strategic decision making rather than snowballing limited tankbattles out of one base the entire game.

FULLY AGREED

Also this might cause "MCV-Monstertrucking" to reappear but first I´m the only one doing that atm and 2nd I´m pretty sure ppl will find a counter.



MCV is the Core Unit. That's what it is.
Back then the 2x- price and build time increase to the mcv has proven to have an impact on EVERY other units balance and most builds in TD, hence we saw an outbreak in numbers of changes applied since then ( which had its ups and down sides ).
As you also have proven in the TD Finals (1st Game i think it was vs Blackend) one could say the MCV 4k became a "T4 unit", besides changing TD in almost every way.
ZxGanon wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:38 pm
I want TD to become a competitive faster paced OpenRA game

The precise values/stats for the mcv might never be found out, so not going big steps should keep balance changes/improvements stable. Rather then flipping the entire balance upside down as in the past :)


Harvester:
- Increased Movement Speed from 85 to 100
- Readjusted buildtime from 27 secs to 24 secs
This change was an idea of Orb to encourage long distance harvesting and I like this idea aswell.
Readjusted the buildtime due to my politics of reducing all the customized buildtimes.


+1

Rocket Launcher:
- Renamed it to MLRS
- Increased damage against None from 24 to 40
This thing is way weaker than the Nod artillery in any regards but killing Light Armor. When players (especially Nod players)
perform heavy infantry pushes against GDI...well let´s just say GDI has a very very hard time dealing with those. So this buff should help out GDI on that regard while also improvng the MLRS.
Oh yeah btw I renamed it because it feels good man.


really like this direction of adjustment,
also,
has changing arty reload times been tested?


Stealth Tank:
- Cost from 900$ to 950$
- reduced damage from 6000 to 4500
- increased rocket count from 2 to 4
- speeded up the burst from 10 to 8

The Stealth Tank always felt to me like a stealthed Nod Attack Bike and that is just not satisfying enough for a member of Kane
so I took an example of how the modern CnC´s handled the stank by increasing the rocket count to let it not only feel more powerful
but also increasing its value. If the Stank will overperform I might undo this change but for now I wanna see how this is going.


- removed audio when cloaking
Another change to help Nod finally disguising their unit´s that are supposed to be "unseen". That stanks announce themselves on the battlefield not only gives away the fact that your opponent just produced a Stank not it also reveals that your opponent reaches T3 and is able to nuke you in a few minutes. This change is necessary to let Stanks finally unleash their full potential by striking because you don't see them coming.


examining a recent replay on the changes done on manufacturing consent:
The stank with both no_sound_on_arrival + burst fire increase to 4 rockets (from 2)
( 2 stanks killing 1 harv on escape move with 2 shots (2x2x4 rockets)), is a very long stretch up for Nod T3 (remember not to go too big steps), since their rockets track and outrace any other unit;
another thought about stanks:
how will they play vs Air at a remote flank where Air units are usually to be found
(thinking of poi/boxes stank plays)

Also, didn't see yet how this might play out vs Mammoth or heavy armor (static def) and MTanks/LTanks, just guess: even more fully hard counter them ?


Chinook:
- Cost from 750$ to 600$
To encourage more dropplay.

might as well provide a very cheap view for arty-tower-spam plays and encourage static plays as in RA.

Apache Longbow:
- Increased attack range of the gorund weapon from 4c0 to 5c0
With this change it finally matches the attack range of the Orca. Im still pretty sure the Apache is underperforming.
It is an excellent Orca killer and okay against infantry and Artillery (it should be now better against those) but
the Orca is still a way better tool to use.


Agree with Beans, the Apache doesn't seem under-performing and has its many use as in it is very potent vs mrls, arty, commando, infantry, even E3s since last patch.

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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by ZxGanon » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:17 pm

Guard Tower was changed back to require Barracks/Hand of Nod since Version 1.2.

Rocket Soldier speed change is debateble yes and I have no problems with changing that value (still though I want them to be faster than in current release since that is just wayyyyyyyyyyy too slow).

Flamehtrower Infantry is underperforming and the combo with Artillery makes it good because Nod Artillery is good and not this little cigarette igniter.

Commando: yes please test that thing more. I havent had any positive nor negative results in gameplay YET.

I dont wanna touch reload times on any artillery. That can go very wrong very quick.

Stank change is more of a visual change than buff because this high tech Nod unit is just boring in current release.
In theory I buffed him in damage a bit but also nerfed him in the way that he has to stand on one place longer to deliver a full burst (also he costs +50$ more now).
The AA capability was tested and yes it is stronger but I can change that by just editing the AA weapon so please keep testing that.

Chinook: Adjusting vision range and this wont be an issue if that becomes an issue.

Apache: With 4c0 Anti Ground range this thing was just bad. Try to kill rocket sldiers with that puny range is not just a pain but can also not be pulled off without letting that chopper die. With 5c0 it can finally perform with it´s big brother the Orca.
But like I said if becoming an issue it can get axed.

So yeah please continue testing.
I especially wanna see games where my newly implemented Veteran System shines. This kind of system we have in A New Dawn 1.3 is uses in Shattered Paradise and is the next modenr stepp to finally flatten this code and make it more accessable for beginners and long time players since the old system ist just not intuitive and not readable (quite literally since you cannot even see the veterancy on opponent units which is just questionable why this was mad ein the first place).

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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by Beans » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:44 pm

So many things can be done in the name of balance. Yet we must always be mindful that 'the spirit' of the game should never be changed, and I worry that TD 'charm' is slowly eroded with every new release. Lets sit back, play a lot, think a lot and talk a lot. We have a piece of gaming history in our hands and it has to be treated with the proper respect, AoA knows this, lets calm it down a bit and not get into radical changes with out due course and deliberations.

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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by ZxGanon » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:33 pm

Beans wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:44 pm
So many things can be done in the name of balance. Yet we must always be mindful that 'the spirit' of the game should never be changed, and I worry that TD 'charm' is slowly eroded with every new release. Lets sit back, play a lot, think a lot and talk a lot. We have a piece of gaming history in our hands and it has to be treated with the proper respect, AoA knows this, lets calm it down a bit and not get into radical changes with out due course and deliberations.
Im trying to preserve TD as much as possible and adding more fresh strategies to the game by making more units (and especially Nod) viable. Im kinda trying to go back to the old versions of TD with cheaper MCV and no penalty on building placements, etc.

But yes my maps ar emodded and nowhere near an official playtest so we can just play and have fun. I can always offer my changes at a later time on GitHub so pchote and the other devs can judge on that.

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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by Beans » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:18 pm

I'm always open to testing new ideas, but I'm aware of how sometimes unopposed ideas can be seen as accepted. I think what scares me are the mechanic changes such as engineer external capture of buildings. Although there are arguably technical advantages to this change, it poses one big problem. It changes the game feel too much, and I'm not talking about technical mechanics, I'm talking about charm and soul of the game. The way engineers work is like a signature feature of the game and if that particular thing is open for debate, then anything goes, nothing is safe and the lore of TD is resigned to the dustbin of history.

Some things should be preserved in stone, some things are sacred and are unimpeachable, beyond scrutiny, they are holy symbols of a bygone time that must be preserved at all cost.

Some things are better left alone. Regardless if its better or not.


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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by 010010 » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:22 am

Rifle and Rocketman have now same movespeed. Means no care abpout your units. Just A-move it. Less micro for low tech units.
4 Apaches Raping evreything. They are not made to burn buildings down or damaging that much heavy armor. They are pure inf and light armor killers.
Obelisk Spam will come like Dumb RA Teslacoil Spam.
Fun is you made misstakes like 3k MCV But Buildduration is wrong. Its now 1min and 4s buildtime.
40s Airstrip and WF can make fun when Medium Tank and Light Tank are on Tech 1 like CnC3. But that neads equal strength from both units. in money and buildtime.
Also the beginning of the game will still make Low Tech Spam because you can now hold 18s. To hold soon enough early inf attacks. Game will end more in Light vehicle spam + Tower Def.

You are not balancing. You are making more spam. Its completely the same like D2k RA CD and SP now. You have no clue to make counter play.

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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by ZxGanon » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:29 pm

Like I said the rocket soldier one is nothing major and Im fine with changing that one.

Apaches killing infantry and light vehicles only. Trying to kill buildings or heavy armored vehicles with that unit ist just ineffective (also that´s where the orca shines).

Obelisk spamm hasn´t been seen yet. AGT spamm was always the case. No different if using my mod or any other version of TD. This thing is just plain broken. My AGT atleast is weaker (but still good).

Build duration should be 72 seconds on the MCV so that is correct.

40 second on Airstrip is to balance out the absolute imbalance in comparrision to GDI factory as stated in my notes.

There is nothing wrong with light vehicle spamm or tank rushes. I have seen all right now and teching up in my mod still happens because the games dont end quick like in the current version where one small mistake already kill you (like not having a barrack to prepare a defense or losing too many units in the early stage or a simple ref/factory block) or simply playing Nod against GDI (sadly not a joke).

Im opening up more way to play the game and enable more units/strategies. If you wanna see true spamm than play Orb´s mod.

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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by ZxGanon » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:35 pm

Extra post:

I thought about removing the speed buff on harvesters.
Also changing the movement speed buff on the Rocket Soldier (so it is more than the old version but less than Rifleman).

I wanna see:
The usage of Flamethrower Infantry and Commandos, also maybe paired with Chinooks.
I would also like to observe games where Stealth Tanks get used. I just wanna add a ivusal coolness to the unit rather than buffing it (even though the current Stank in released version is underwhelming). After all he does a bit more damage but also costs more and doesn´t get announced on the battlefield anymore.

I´m also playing with the thought of retrying the MCV to cost 2000$ but changing it´s stats (HP, movement speed, vision radius) to fit better into the game but being less broken like it was the case 4 years ago. Also maybe readding the Repair Station requirement.

But I dont know if someone of you woul be willing to test that one.

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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by Beans » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:36 pm

if you want tank buster helicopters then play GDI and build some orcas, Nod was always the infantry faction and the apaches infantry busters. Apaches on the field further reduces GDI infantry effectiveness, forcing GDI into its already but intentionally limited options, for me the best buff for apaches would be to reduce APC AA effectiveness by a margin. Buffing Apache to wards Orca capability's is just no good, may as well just give both factions orcas then.

Air already has massive buff in this Mod with auto reloading, healing on pad's and anymore buffs removes air from support only role in to standard units. That was never the intention.

Rocket Infantry, why is this unit being changed? You can break things that aren't broken by trying to fix them for no reason.

Were this idea came from to remove the sounds on the Stanks I have no idea, but its madness. Stanks are deadly in the right hands and on the right maps, I think tower spam is the main problem that crates their limited use.

Tower spam, increase price of towers. its simple, more cost, more build time, less towers.

Custom build times, this has been discussed in the past and we have all agreed no custom build times, it opens up a can of worms.

I would be happy to test your MCV ideas but 2k is too cheap and mcv are already weak as fuck I think given the importance of the unit, making them weaker and cheaper would force multiple mcv's in most games as was never intended, I would like to see a little cheaper (maybe) but if anything get a hp boost.

You mentioned that TD is snowbally and once thing can ruin the whole game with little or no recovery chance. Well I agree with this but I'm not sure the best way to approach it, or even if its a bad thing, I think a slight buff on the mcv will make some difference .

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Re: Redesigning and Balancing TD

Post by ZxGanon » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:52 pm

Who told you that I created custom buildtimes? That was AoA to lock all defences and some units to begin with behind such exceptional buildtimes (that are horrible). I removed all custom buildtimes to finally end this nightmare.

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