Smitty's Spring 2018 Playtest

Playtest B is out

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:57 pm

Lmao :lol:

Kill bounties can and can't be useful. But imagine, you have a nice army growing, youre setting it up in formations, and boom suddenly Dick Douche Daryl III comes with surprise flanks and rekts your shit, gaining a huge bonus from sheer luck by catching the enemy off guard or in a bad position.

This isn't a game of luck, it's a game of skill and strategizing.

So Dick Douche Daryl III is struggling to finish you off because idk base defenses, so he retreats.

Now, PussySlayer9000 is left hanging onto life, full life support system and all, while that sniveling little Dick Douche Daryl III is swimming in cash, readying up the finishing wave of forces to blast your ass back to 1995.

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Don't be like Dick Douche Daryl III.

Be Like PussySlayer9000; A gentleman, a scholar, man of culture, and a straight G, whomst'd've's fully supports the removal of bounties

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P.S. Fuck dopamine, anadamide is where it's at ;)

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[font=Stencil][align=center]/ S A Y \
- N O -
| TO BOUNTIES |
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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:06 pm

CatGirls420 wrote: Kill bounties can and can't be useful. But imagine, you have a nice army growing, youre setting it up in formations, and boom suddenly Dick Douche Daryl III comes with surprise flanks and rekts your shit, gaining a huge bonus from sheer luck by catching the enemy off guard or in a bad position.
So the enemy is rewarded for catching you out of position with a flank attack. I don't see the problem that is strategizing right?
CatGirls420 wrote: Now, PussySlayer9000 is left hanging onto life, full life support system and all, while that sniveling little Dick Douche Daryl III is swimming in cash, readying up the finishing wave of forces to blast your ass back to 1995.
If you're stupid enough to bundle your entire army into one basket and lose it for no good reason then you deserve everything you get. Now the flipside. While Dick Douche Daryl III is attacking, PussySlayer9000 has a complete defensive advantage and will trade a lot better getting his own swimming pool of cash with arties and pillboxes. It's the iconic Fiveaces move of surviving a good 40 minuites off just an ore mine and cash bounties then somehow reversing the game into a win.

CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:53 pm

Yeah but it's gay. It's something to mix up the strategy, but it's gay. It's not needed.

Nobody comes to you o0n the battlefield, bestows a gift upon you, and congratulates like in a participation-trophy-esque manner, for doing something.

Luck, is not fair. If you want an even match, you have to reduce the influence luck has. It happens literally every match, someone getting some lucky kills because muh raisins.

That's not strategy, that's gambling.

We turn crates off for 1v1s do we not? Sometimes team games? And why is that? Because by chance, you'll either get fucked, or do the fucking. It's not fair. It's not fair *cries*

Also you know damn well unit pathing sucks, and units will group up regardless, so you have to trade time spent shooting, for time spent scattering or getting to good formations. Not everything goes as planned and you of all people should know this lol.

Bottomline, is that any match is at least 25% luck. Maybe someone here will disagree but nobody has yet.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:03 am

CatGirls420 wrote: Yeah but it's gay. It's something to mix up the strategy, but it's gay. It's not needed.

Nobody comes to you o0n the battlefield, bestows a gift upon you, and congratulates like in a participation-trophy-esque manner, for doing something.

Luck, is not fair. If you want an even match, you have to reduce the influence luck has. It happens literally every match, someone getting some lucky kills because muh raisins.

That's not strategy, that's gambling.

We turn crates off for 1v1s do we not? Sometimes team games? And why is that? Because by chance, you'll either get fucked, or do the fucking. It's not fair. It's not fair *cries*

Also you know damn well unit pathing sucks, and units will group up regardless, so you have to trade time spent shooting, for time spent scattering or getting to good formations. Not everything goes as planned and you of all people should know this lol.

Bottomline, is that any match is at least 25% luck. Maybe someone here will disagree but nobody has yet.
I have absolutley no idea what your going on about at all. But Ill try my best to decipher.

Calling it “gay†is not really suitable for proving to me its a bad thing. It’s strategical skill and quick decision making to do a suprise flank attack and the player should be rewarded.

This luck sentence is irrelevant. Bounties happen to both sides in equal quantity therefore not tied into chance but into the ability of the commander killing and preserving units.

There is no gambling both players have the same affect. It is stratergy to take better trades and therefore gain more bounty.

Crates once again not relevant. Crates are rng based that only affect one player at a time that is down to chance. Bounties affect both players in equal quantity tied into the micro ability of the player therefore not about chance,

Now this is relevant yes pathing and unit micro sucks and bountys reflect that HOWEVER as soscared said bounties will only reflect core problems in the game itself. It’s not bounties fault that your units dont stop when commanded. Refuse to stop on A move or inf just waddle in one spot. Its the games fault that happens which makes bounties look like a bad guy since the free kills. If the game wasnt broken this issue with bounties wouldnt exist so removing bounties using this point as an arguement is basically admitting the unit micro is currently fucked.

I am disagreeing with you.

CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:32 am

Clearly your disagreeing with me. And showing how ignorant you are to how the game actually works. If you refuse to accept simple facts then there's no debate at all. You can't debate with someone who denies facts.

I'm sorry that you believe what you believe and I hope you see reason soon.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:37 am

CatGirls420 wrote: Clearly your disagreeing with me. And showing how ignorant you are to how the game actually works. If you refuse to accept simple facts then there's no debate at all. You can't debate with someone who denies facts.

I'm sorry that you believe what you believe and I hope you see reason soon.
Im sorry can you highlight a simple fact from your above 2 posts i cant locate one.

Lorrydriver
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Post by Lorrydriver » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:11 am

I don't think it's a huge deal removing cash bounties. However, I don't think it's a step into the right direction either.

Veterancy can be rather powerful and therefore give one player a good advantage. With bounties that's counteracted with the exponential cash bounty increase for killing vetted units. My point is: Cash bounties help the player who's behind more than the winning player. They are one of the few things in the game that can help you make comebacks.

Secondly, less cash for every player means slower games, and slower games still have a huge issue which I hope someone is trying to address at some point. IMO, there's only one problem that makes this game unbearable sometimes. Slow mid-late games including allies. We need to change how artilleries, pillboxes and aa guns work, before we do anything else.
There's almost no one who likes the way they work atm. They just punish every kind of army movement while they can't go on the offensive without having a building radius from an mcv and even then its just a very slow and boring crawling. And this is not just a 1v1 problem, in fact this problem is probably the least obvious in 1v1s and its still making me sick. Games including only soviets are a lot more dynamic and a lot more fun in general.
I know that we want both factions to be unique and both have their own styles but often allies' best option is to go down that path of just never attacking again.

The gps nerf thing was a really good change, it's decreasing the strength of just sitting around with arties and waiting, but we can't stop there. Let's make this game great again, Smitty.

CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:21 am

Lol you should try my cg420 maps then Lorry. Based on what you said, it's exactly what you're looking for.

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ZxGanon
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Post by ZxGanon » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:36 am

CatGirls can you pls stop supporting the guys that wanna remove bounty? You make them just lose without a fight.

Go and support the bounty defenders instead that should work well. :D

CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:39 am

Good idea, I'll buy you a beer as reward for your servitude. Off I go, wish me luck!

eskimo
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Post by eskimo » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:44 am

Smitty wrote:
oh, and also

* Removed kill bounties

Sorry about that last one. We really need testing on this issue so I decided it's time to throw it in. Kill bounties are closer to the chopping block than they've been before and it's time to take this idea seriously.

If you are a supporter of kill bounties, we need to hear that (a) you've tested several games without them and (b) you have a better argument for keeping them than 'Don't fix what isn't broke'. Without feedback that gives a proper support for keeping them, there is a good chance we'll see kill bounties removed in the near future.
Not happening sadly. I just feel this is beyond me giving a crap due to what i thought had been delved into already and support for it was overwhelming? So i'm of the opinion, do what you will, but as soon as i feel i'm not liking it, i'll be playing less or not at all. Which was the same opinion i took with the stance changes, i didn't feel i wanted to get involved in something so deep, and if changes happened i didn't like, so be it. But luckily with that, i think the game took an ever so slight step forward as there were things i miss/changed.


However we have the option currently to turn off Kill Bounties in options already? So i am little confused as why this is going in to debate again as i thought it was sorted out with those discussing it previously?

Also having that noise of cash from an engi snipe is so so good to hear (pre 2/3min game) if you're not looking at your lone infantry guy looking for that snipe. It helps give good indication you've got that early lead. It's not luck either, people sending their engi off unguarded is their own poor commanding i believe.



I didn't get to play the AA chrono tank myself, but trust your judgement on it there. I had wanted to give it a go sadly as remember it strongly from the original.



CatGirls420 wrote: But imagine, you have a nice army growing, youre setting it up in formations, and boom suddenly Dick Douche Daryl III comes with surprise flanks and rekts your shit, gaining a huge bonus from sheer luck by catching the enemy off guard or in a bad position.
Chances are Dick the 3rd scouted the army, saw a weakness, and consequently jumped on that weakness. Pussyslayer should do something more constructive with his/her army rather than take too long to make a formation, (i don't know what you mean in relation to formations?)

Pre stance changes you could often anticipate enemy armies without scouting as leaving your base wasn't such a big gamble. Knowing your opponent's typical playstyle and movements isn't luck, you learn that. Making educated guesses on enemy's movement is the same, it's an educated guess. The same still applies now, it's just bases are weaker so scouting has become stronger.

I tend to say "i got lucky there" in games when my opponent messes up at the same time as me and i come away better off, but in reality my opponents mistake was bigger. That's technically not luck either. We just end up using the word luck out of context, and it's only really the things that are RNG based that are the true luck in this game. We just like calling things lucky as it's easier to say than, "because he didn't scout one cell further he didn't see that tech centre, snipe it, stopped the GPS and prevented the enemies high tech advantage ending up in a win"

SirCake
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Post by SirCake » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:59 am

Contradicting (in part) what Lorrydriver said I think cash bounties benefit the stronger player. It makes early game victories more important, since the economy of RA is so exponential. 10% more units will beat any army which the other guy can field exponentially harder, too. (2v1 rifles is much closer than 3v1 rifles). On top of that veterancy and neutral captureables.
This speeds up the game and increases the chance of a "random lucky engi snipe into snowball" win or buildorder-win (though this is almost no factor in RA compared to other games).
All these factors might make RA too volatile early game. Removing one factor would help.

In the end-game where players almost put 100% of their cash into attacking units the cash bounty helps reduce sluggish cash stall situations and speeds up the game, which is good. But it also helps bunkering players, since attacking is so horribly ineffective in RA and prolongs games eternally this way.

To keep it for funs sake isn't really an argument here I think, since the cash sound feedback could easily get replaced with a leveling up sound, keeping the "good feel" upon sniping an engi.

So, I'm amivalent about this change but lean more toward ->removing cash bounties.
Don't think its too big of a change either. Play it in official for one release cycle (with option to turn on) and see which option gets played more often.

Check out Dune2k-Advanced on my moddb page!

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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:46 pm

*Catgirls plz get off our team you are not helping our argument at all
SirCake wrote: Contradicting (in part) what Lorrydriver said I think cash bounties benefit the stronger player.
This is absolutely true.. bounties cause the "snowball effect" where the strong player that is winning starts to get extra cash as well over their opponent so they get a double advantage.

If you catch your enemy offguard and slaughter them.. your reward is that you slaughtered their army.. their troops are dead, yours are not...that's how war works. You don't get an extra little financial bonus from the war gods for doing a good job or something.. it makes no logical sense.. it has no place in any of the original C&C games so it should really not be in the official tournament ruleset of this game.

If the best argument against removing them is "there won't be enough monies to have a good match!!" I'm like wow really we can't put our thinking caps on and come up with an alternative solution if this happens to be a problem after testing? Like hmmm what can we do.. can we adjust ore spawn rates? can we add some more ore to the maps? I mean it's not rocket science to come up with a solution to this if it actually becomes a problem.

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WhoCares
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Post by WhoCares » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:59 pm

Just play the damn thing and compare the effect afterward here.

Lorrydriver
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Post by Lorrydriver » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:45 pm

avalach and sircake dont seem to know how bounties really work.

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