If hinds were returned to soviet...

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
zinc
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Post by zinc » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:25 pm

Most obvious ways to test before tinkering with smaller stuff...

Give one soviet faction hinds in addition to yaks off radar (can't make them worse, but may give the faction too much of an advantage.)

Give one faction both, but have the hinds off the tech centre so they aren't getting an early advantage of having both. You can't make the faction worse, and there is presumably less risk of them becoming too powerful.

Replace yaks with hinds for one soviet faction. Advantage of hinds may be balanced by loss of yaks. However it's a fundamental change to how that faction would work, which may piss players off. You could however implement it for a new third soviet faction so there would be no change to how existing factions work. Although of course a third soviet faction would be non-original.

Also, is there is a build-time advantage of combined heli pads and runways? Because if there isn't, that may slightly compensate for the advantages of having both. I.e. you may have access to both hinds and yaks, but you will have a slower build time compared to someone who has invested just in yaks, all things being equal.

SirCake
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Post by SirCake » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:49 pm

SirCake wrote: Getting more and more intresed in this topic ^^ Zinc, I hope you provide us with a custom map with a balance attempt soon. I hope this isnt just empty talk and pointless discussion here :)

Check out Dune2k-Advanced on my moddb page!

zinc
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Post by zinc » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:36 pm

Haven't made a modified map in a long time, but you never know.

CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:34 am

"it's already proven by practice. "

Well that I didn't really know. Both sides should provide examples because for someone like me, there's no proof that it breaks balance or helps it. At least, nobody has proved either side yet....unless someone said something somewhere a while ago that I obviously would not have come across :p

"The game definitely benefits from being balanced for both 1v1s and teamgames, but first there needs to be a good example of what exactly is broken. Comparing casual teamgames against competitive 1v1 is not correct because you're swapping 2 variables at once here. Recent team tournament has a good chance to provide some evidence, but just saying "my no rush 30 min 3v3 teamgames are shit so game is unbalanced" doesn't really have a firm ground."

I'd love to discuss that, but in a more......friendly, intelligent, and open-minded atmosphere than this thread lol.

"You mix up the cause and the consequence here. It's not the game built around the top players and top strategies, but top players tending to adhere to certain strategies because they provide a higher chance of winning in current balance situation."

I guess. My problem might be not being involved with 1v1s enough but from what I've seen and discusssed with other people, including the "maintainers" and "lurking" in conversations, it really seems to be built around top players. I'm trying to see this not be true, but as of now that's what it looks like - to be true.

But if you're saying it's not, then I have to consider that. I hope it's not :p

P.S. I think pchote secretly loves me hehe, why else would he make the emotes cats? :lol:

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Materianer
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Post by Materianer » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:32 am

Okay updated the maps to make the helipad buildable for both soviet factions.
I added a new shootingsound recorded from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWjQnxlvwa0

--
A Nuclear Winter
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26360/

Comes with the Ah1-Cobra

--
Borrowed Time
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26361/

Comes with the Comanche.

--
Siberian Summer
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26362/

Comes with the Mortechas Huey this time.

--
Tournament Island
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26359/

comes with the AH1-Cobra.

would be nice if someone could test these this time hehe

If not we can close this thread if you all think Current situation does not need proofs because it's already proven by practice. :\

eskimo
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Post by eskimo » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:54 am

Willing to give it a go, but we're almost on RAGL and OTT time now which will reduce interest a bit i think.

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:46 pm

It feels like we have only just got clear of the last RAGL reducing interest in OpenRA's evolution. That seems like a convenient excuse to not get involved, which is fair enough - nobody is obligated to help with OpenRA - but it does mean that the project will move forward without those people's input.

zinc
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Post by zinc » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:00 pm

Materianer wrote: would be nice if someone could test these this time hehe
I will definitely play some games with them. Of course any results will be anecdotal, but if enough people do it then any more obvious problems, imbalance, should show up.

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Materianer
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Post by Materianer » Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:54 am

Small update:

Improved the code and shooting sound a bit

All the maps come now with the same code and units, means 3 different helis for allied factions.
France got the Comanche
England got the Cobra
Germany got the Huey
Soviets of course Hind

Image

I added ore gardens and vegetation to my list because i like teamgames more than 1on1 maps.

https://resource.openra.net/maps/26367/
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26366/
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26365/
zinc wrote: You could however implement it for a new third soviet faction so there would be no change to how existing factions work. Although of course a third soviet faction would be non-original.
You could just take the soviets as a faction and make it like a closer to original ra race
with hind. The flag for them is already in the game but i think you cant do that with a modmap.

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netnazgul
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Post by netnazgul » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:15 am

Sleipnir wrote: It feels like we have only just got clear of the last RAGL reducing interest in OpenRA's evolution. That seems like a convenient excuse to not get involved, which is fair enough - nobody is obligated to help with OpenRA - but it does mean that the project will move forward without those people's input.
Still the sore. RAGL contributes to bugtracking as much as the common gameflow, if not more. I don't understand why would you bring this bitterness up again.

On the topic btw.
As far as hinds go, I'd like to see Hind being better color-wise. Currently, if you don't have some specific bright colors selected, you can't really see what Hinds belong to which player because their coloring just blends in a single color. This might be also the concern on these new copters as well.

CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:55 am

Here's an idea: why not give planes to allies also? Both sides would have heli's and planes. A unique for each country would be nice. But then we're deviating farrrrrr from the core game. Those 3 unique heli's already deviate far.

I did something similar with chrono tanks: England got a basic one, france got a stealth one, germany an advanced one (only the advanced could target air) and it worked out really nice. But it took away from the feel of the core gameplay.

This is also why I decided to stop claiming my CG420 maps to be "more balanced than base game" because it went totally off course. I reverted back to that idea and.....I just wish more people would try my new CG420 maps.

So far the feedback on them has been either not much, or positive. I can't recall a single negative response/opinion, for my new releases.

Maybe the higher ups or top players could give it a go and provide some feedback?

Back on topic....I guess the question is, do we want to deviate from the core gameplay, or not?

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir » Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:22 am

netnazgul wrote: I don't understand why would you bring this bitterness up again.
I didn't bring it up...? My comment was in response to the one directly above saying that the upcoming RAGL will reduce interest in resolving this.

eskimo
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Post by eskimo » Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:01 am

CatGirls420 wrote: Back on topic....I guess the question is, do we want to deviate from the core gameplay, or not?
That's the reason why this topic was created. I think your changes are to be concidered a mod more than balance changes and therefore shouldn't be played analytically but just for fun.

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Orb
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Post by Orb » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:37 am

https://www.gamereplays.org/openra/repl ... &id=328804

Tested the new hinds on Nuclear Winter. I played pretty bad, and Smitty didn't exactly try too hard towards mid game either, but as you can see it's massively unbalanced. There's also no reason to use the Yak, having two anti infantry aircraft for one faction is just bloat.

We did another game but Smitty just rushed me before radar tech, lol. Thanks for the helpful testing Smitty.

The new sound is cool though. The jury is still out on the models. I think a model swap is still possible, and keep the hind to campaign play only.

CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:19 am

eskimo wrote:
CatGirls420 wrote: Back on topic....I guess the question is, do we want to deviate from the core gameplay, or not?
That's the reason why this topic was created. I think your changes are to be concidered a mod more than balance changes and therefore shouldn't be played analytically but just for fun.
Are you refering top the new cg420's, or the old? The old for fun sure, but the new ones arent too different from core gameplay :p

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