If hinds were returned to soviet...

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
zinc
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Post by zinc » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:13 pm

barf_openra wrote: If you don't get that the two units are completely different in their roles, use, and relative importance to their factions theres nothing I can say to make you understand.

Log 1000+ hours of competitive gameplay over the next three years and then let me know if still need me to walk you through an illustration of the difference between a Soviet Yak and and Allied Hind.

"Because Muh OrinigalRA" and "Because Muh Artwork" are two really bad reasons to spend the next six months of your life trying to balance moving the Hind from allies to soviets.
So if people don't already agree with you, there is no point saying anything?

Even assuming radically different roles, it doesn't automatically follow that one Soviet faction having the option of both, (or only Hinds at mid tech), will mess up balance. Or if you think there is some obvious reason why it will create a problem, then you can share it, rather than saying it's pointless to give explanations for your opinions.

It may be correct that we don't know for sure what will happen without test games played, but that cuts both ways-- without at least some testing you can't say it will mess up balance. It's just speculation. Maybe with good reason behind it; or maybe just dogma. But it's speculation until tested.

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Inq
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Post by Inq » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:17 am

avalach21 wrote:
zinc wrote: For the "two different Longbows" idea...

Image

this looks dopee.. if anything I really wouldnt mind this option.. simple and effective.
The problem with this solution is these 2 longbows are basically identical. If I'm playing against allies how can I make a split second decision to send my air in when I cannot differentiate if these particular longbows are gonna destroy my fleet. A large part of being pacey in this game is the split second correct decision making. There's a white dot on top next to the propellers. There's also an identical white dot for the cockpit which can confuse. If I quickly look at the longbows, see a white dot which is actually the cockpit and decide not send my yaks in and then lose the game from it is going to be throwing stuff at the wall.
Well I just provided that as an example. No one said it had to be white, it could be blue or glowing red. The same way you split second identify a mini gunner from a grenadier in TD from example.
Last edited by Inq on Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

.1
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Post by .1 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:54 am

I'll put my faith in the #1 player of Openra right now, Smitty( followed only by Happy of course) But I would tend to agree with Barf and Happy, if it isnt broke, don't fix it.

SirCake
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Post by SirCake » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:14 am

Well that was a double stab to the neck of our King, Lorrydriver - long last his rule! - we shall see if he cannot recover from this wound in S5 Ragl ;P

Check out Dune2k-Advanced on my moddb page!

zinc
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Post by zinc » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:36 am

.1 wrote: I'll put my faith in the #1 player of Openra right now, Smitty( followed only by Happy of course) But I would tend to agree with Barf and Happy, if it isnt broke, don't fix it.
That kind of brings up the question of whether it's "broken" then.

And the gameplay may be working ok, so it isn't broken in that sense.

But then Soviets not having access to a key unit may be seen as a glaring fault over the original game. There have been other changes like the APC, or the demo truck being Soviet only. Maybe you could say that the Hind switching sides, would be like the Destroyer switching sides over to Soviet, and would seem completely out of place for some people and an issue that Allies couldn't get access to the unit themselves.

zinc
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Post by zinc » Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:07 pm

Assuming that Hinds and Yaks have very different roles for their respective factions, a couple of points--

Well it may be that Soviets could develop a different style of play with Hinds, that although different, would still be effective, and not overpowered against the other sides. Is there any reason to think that the other Soviet units wouldn't work in combination with Hind use and Hind tactics? Or do Yaks fill some essential role for Soviets that they couldn't do without? Or is there a reason to think that Hind tactics in combination with other Soviet units would be too powerful?

Also, assuming you gave a Soviet faction access to both, it seems logically you couldn't mess up that faction in the sense of making them too weak for competitive play. You could just not use the Hinds and it would be the same as before. So the only risk would be that Hinds would be too powerful in the hands of a Soviet player.

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Orb
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Post by Orb » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:11 pm

I was going to remain quiet on this but I feel like I need to set some things straight before the discussion gets too wonky.

Competitive play wise, Hinds are a lynch pin in Allies strategy. Even more so in recent months, where I see players, almost in an arms race, getting quicker and quicker radar domes. Whoever can sneak out the radar dome earlier tends to have an advantage. I don't think any decision of changing the unit roster like this should be taken lightly. I have a couple reasons why I don't think the current approach will work (reverting to the original unit roster)

1. Faction assymetry
Having fixed wing airplanes for the soviets and helicopters for Allies gives each faction a distinctive feel, and creates interesting game play. Yaks are fast but can't help much in large engagements. Hinds are powerhouses but are slow.

2. Bloat
Soviets having two anti infantry aircraft is just bloat. OpenRA has a very clean unit roster with each unit having a well defined role in the game.

3. Balance
As I've already mentioned.


Personally, I feel the best compromise between game play and "aesthetic" here is just renaming the unit and changing the model. The hind would no longer exist in the game. Giving the hind to the Soviets is just not an option really.

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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:14 pm

Just adding another random thought too.. instead of assuming the Hind would get unlocked at tier 2 with a radar dome for Soviets as it currently is for Allies, for balancing would it help at all to push it back to tier 3 and require a tech center? Out of curiosity is that how it was in the original RA?

If I remember correctly I don't think the helipad could even be built with out a tech center..

Jur
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Post by Jur » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:35 pm

Why would be good to give hind back to the soviets?

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:42 pm

avalach21 wrote: Just adding another random thought too.. instead of assuming the Hind would get unlocked at tier 2 with a radar dome for Soviets as it currently is for Allies, for balancing would it help at all to push it back to tier 3 and require a tech center? Out of curiosity is that how it was in the original RA?

If I remember correctly I don't think the helipad could even be built with out a tech center..
For allies yes, but for soviets airfield and helipad were unlocked after radar tech.

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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:43 pm

Jur wrote: Why would be good to give hind back to the soviets?
lmao, cause it's a soviet helicopter. it's where it originally was in the original game and where it belongs. And for all the talk of it "breaking" gameplay, maybe it would actually enhance the game by making games more dynamic/interesting with some added variation.

barf_openra
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Post by barf_openra » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:00 pm

avalach21 wrote:
Jur wrote: Why would be good to give hind back to the soviets?
lmao, cause it's a soviet helicopter. it's where it originally was in the original game and where it belongs. And for all the talk of it "breaking" gameplay, maybe it would actually enhance the game by making games more dynamic/interesting with some added variation.
"Maybe" it would, "Maybe" it would be awful, but for sure we will never know because id wager none of the people who think this is a good idea would ever put in the required effort and time to test it. This zombie thread will rightly die in the very near future and hopefully you all go back to the naval balance thread where you can do no actual harm to the game.

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:14 pm

barf_openra wrote: naval balance thread where you can do no actual harm to the game.
feelsbadman

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Happy
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Post by Happy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:19 pm

Blackened wrote:
barf_openra wrote: naval balance thread where you can do no actual harm to the game.
feelsbadman
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Jur
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Post by Jur » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:15 pm

avalach21 wrote:
Jur wrote: Why would be good to give hind back to the soviets?
lmao, cause it's a soviet helicopter. it's where it originally was in the original game and where it belongs. And for all the talk of it "breaking" gameplay, maybe it would actually enhance the game by making games more dynamic/interesting with some added variation.
then we shoulden't be adding cobra, because it was not in the original

and thread should "If game would returned to original..." , and we would need to discuss APC and flak truck

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