If hinds were returned to soviet...

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Smitty
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Post by Smitty » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:25 pm

@Materianer That cobra weapon sound seems familiar. Is it from Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines?
Also the cobra is a bit wide for my taste. It should be noticeably thinner than the longbow. (Which is probably hard as the in-game longbow is already very thin.)
"Do not trust the balance tzars (Smitty, Orb). They are making the changes either for the wrong reasons, for no reason at all, or just because they can and it makes them feel good."

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Materianer
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Post by Materianer » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:54 am

@Smitty the sound is from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWjQnxlvwa0 at 4:34
In the new maprevision i mixed this sound with the original hind sound ( done by just giving only 1 of the 2 hindweapons the new sound ) . Eurocopter (france) got this and the other 2 helis 2 new sounds mixed with hindshoot.

Image

the 3 new helis:
The Eurocopter Tiger seem to be the same model like the cobra for me, i scaled it down to 0.8 of original size thats how the builder of the unit made it in his map too and fit better in size compared to the other helis like you noticed. For france

The Westland Lynx is my personally favourite of these 3 new models, original english helicopter.

The KA 50 Hokum is a russian double bladed helicopter added him just for fun.
Germany

Thanks a lot Gabesz for the helis, i found the shps in his map.

A Nuclear Winter
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26424/

Borrowed Time
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26423/

Siberian Summer
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26422/

Tournament Island
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26421/

Ore Gardens
https://resource.openra.net/maps/26420/
Orb wrote: I played pretty bad, and Smitty didn't exactly try too hard towards mid game either, but as you can see it's massively unbalanced. There's also no reason to use the Yak
The first thing you said is right hehe
But its far away from being massively unbalanced and there is no indication for this to see in this replay.
After played ~15-20 matches i think soviets are stronger yes especially in close base battles where this static hind sight is a benifit but the mass of airunits shold be yaks if you dont want to loose strenght as a soviet.
Thats my feeling about it at the moment but i have to more testgames are needed to be sure of.
There are many reasons to favour yaks especially on big maps, because of the speed, or a group of them smashing into a aa-arty turtle where hinds have no chance to reach a arty.

eskimo
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Post by eskimo » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:23 am

CatGirls420 wrote:
eskimo wrote:
CatGirls420 wrote: Back on topic....I guess the question is, do we want to deviate from the core gameplay, or not?
That's the reason why this topic was created. I think your changes are to be concidered a mod more than balance changes and therefore shouldn't be played analytically but just for fun.
Are you refering top the new cg420's, or the old? The old for fun sure, but the new ones arent too different from core gameplay :p
Whatever versions that have been brought to my knowledge, so lightly old, i guess?

If you wish to push/ test your new versions for balance productivity then you should create a topic and list changes. Perhaps even why you've made these changes. SoScared and SirCake have done nice jobs with their work, and Cake's is very inviting to play also. He made a picture that listed and showed a whole manor of changes.

What i'm basically saying is, given the amount of mods and changes out there, you've really got to make a concisive and large effort if you want your stuff to be played. As a map builder with my own goals, i know this too well, and it don't feel great when your work gets shot down in 0.1% of the time you put into it. But opinions are opinions

CatGirls420
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Post by CatGirls420 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:30 pm

@eskimo I see what you're saying. I do plan to make thing's a lot more, idk, "inviting" and eventually get something together that look more professional. Thank you!

My final words on this topic are "Hinds to Soviets is cancer, but nostalgic cancer."

Eagle XI
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by Eagle XI » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:15 am

What ? Hinds still not returned to soviet ? atrocious i say! Only the fucked airstrike plane of OP'ed Doom in OpenRA's iteration of CC95 is worser.

Printer
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by Printer » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:13 am

I would prefer Hinds do not go back to Soviet. Here's a couple reasons:

a. "Sesame Street"
"A" in Allies is for Amove. "S" in Soviet is for Specialist Micro. The Hind is a largely A-move unit and doesn't fit in Soviet Doctrine. Meanwhile, almost everything in Allies arsenal is A-moving, even Tanya!

b. Planes or Props?
There would be a conflict to figure out which to use. The roles of Yaks and Hinds have too much overlap as they are T2 air units and which to use for scouting might lead to under utilization going forward. Whenever I've played with dual techs, I often neglect one type as I only have several keybindings for air units and due to their flight characteristics, you can't use both in the same grouping.

c. Building Spam
This is actually the strongest reason imo. Unless air units would re-load at the Airfield, now a Soviet Base might start sprouting two kinds of air unit refilling stations and on some maps (where building area is limited) this would be a real issue.

So issue of Allied hind just creates problems I'd vote "No". A legitimate problem IMO is the lack of Soviet Air Transport or the fact the Naval Transport still only holds (5) infantry. :?

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Sleipnir
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by Sleipnir » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 am

Point b kind of misses the point IMO, as this topic was about making sure that the units don't overlap.

Consider the following: we added support for strafing weapons a few releases ago, but making Yaks strafe was rejected because it would have broken its role as a flying sniper unit. This was a real shame because strafing is a fun mechanic that is completely missing in OpenRA's RA, and it matches expectations for the units behaviour both from reality and the original RA.

The Yak could be positioned as a low-tier fast scout that can maul infantry blobs (because of the strafing runs) but is ineffective at sniping individual light armor units. The Hind could then slot in as a more general support unit, with a gun that can lock on specific targets and transport slots for 5 infantry (with a tweak to the passenger logic so that it only needs to land when actively picking up or dropping off infantry). The Mig would then come in at the high tier, roughly mirroring the progression for Allied naval.

IMO this fits in quite nicely with the specialist micro theme and also resolves the soviet air transport issue.

Point c could be avoided by making Hinds build and reload at airfields, keeping the Helipad as an allied-only structure. If we wanted to go further then they could be made to automatically reload in the air to further separate them from Yaks, meaning the airfield (plus radar dome?) is only needed for production.

IMO the hard part is working out how to fill the gap left on the Allies.

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Inq
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by Inq » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:57 am

Sleipnir wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 am
Consider the following: we added support for strafing weapons a few releases ago, but making Yaks strafe was rejected because it would have broken its role as a flying sniper unit. This was a real shame because strafing is a fun mechanic that is completely missing in OpenRA's RA, and it matches expectations for the units behaviour both from reality and the original RA.

The Yak could be positioned as a low-tier fast scout that can maul infantry blobs (because of the strafing runs) but is ineffective at sniping individual light armor units. The Hind could then slot in as a more general support unit, with a gun that can lock on specific targets and transport slots for 5 infantry (with a tweak to the passenger logic so that it only needs to land when actively picking up or dropping off infantry). The Mig would then come in at the high tier, roughly mirroring the progression for Allied naval.
This seems like a good solution - a reiteration but nevertheless:

Soviet Air:
YAK - slow, low tier, inprecise AOE weapon to attack infantry & tightly packed soft units/structures.

MIG - fast, high tier, precise missile strike for sniping structures & heavy units.

Hind - slowest, low tier, smaller more concentrated AOE weapon than the YAK but not as strong vs heavy as the MIG


Other balance factors to include are of course: Ammo capacity, Reload time, Unit Cost & Unit Health


To save the hassle of reworking the passenger logic... why not just give the Soviets both the Heli-Pad & the Chinook back?

(Regarding the latter; generalise the name to Transport Helicopter as it is in TD. While the unit was indeed modeled after a Chinook, it could easily also be a YAK-24 "Horse" for gameplay purposes.

Image

SirCake
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by SirCake » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:11 pm

Better use a new model for the Ussr transportport heli, like the Mil MI-26, which was a very heavy lifting helicoper (#vehicle-transport ;) ).
Using the “chinook” model would likely lead to the hind issue all over again...

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Inq
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by Inq » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:24 am

SirCake wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:11 pm
Better use a new model for the Ussr transportport heli, like the Mil MI-26, which was a very heavy lifting helicoper (#vehicle-transport ;) ).
Using the “chinook” model would likely lead to the hind issue all over again...
Well I'd say there is a general reluctance to add new artwork to the game... (Even though though ORA does use a different chinook sprite to the original)

The main difference between giving the Hind to the Allies & giving the Chinook to the Soviets is that Westwood gave the Chinook to the Soviets in the original multiplayer. A simple Icon name change is a lot less glaring to "original game purests" than brand new artwork ever will be.

Printer
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by Printer » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:43 am

Sleipnir wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 am
...we added support for strafing weapons a few releases ago, but making Yaks strafe was rejected because it would have broken its role as a flying sniper unit.
This would be fun to test again, and would mean there'd be no overlapping between the Hind and Yak. By strafing do you mean similar to the A10 in C&C?
Sleipnir wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 am
Point c could be avoided by making Hinds build and reload at airfields, keeping the Helipad as an allied-only structure...
Yes please.
Sleipnir wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:43 am
IMO the hard part is working out how to fill the gap left on the Allies.
Some ideas:
a. T2 Longbow - I like this idea as it would give Allies a T2 AA capability but this really invalidates one of the huge T3 reasons for allies in the first place. Still, gives Allies a go-to unit and would take very little changes.

b. Different attack helicopter (like Materia had shown), - not sure if this would work maintaining the differences between the Factions. Giving it AT missiles makes the Longbow less distinctive, giving it a machine gun makes it basically the Hind.

c. Give Light Tanks a Chain Gun instead of Cannon - This would allow the light tank to snipe Artillery and Infantry like the Hind did.

d. Make the Chinook a Gunship - Put infantry in Chinook which can shoot out (like in Generals Zero Hour) and allow Allies only to build it, give Hinds some infantry capacity (like in real life) and both sides have Air Transportation.

e. Accept Allies have no air units in T2 - There's really no ignoring it- without adding more units or major changes moving the Hind to Soviet is hugely significant and TBH not worth all the headache.

Eagle XI
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by Eagle XI » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:56 am

Air transport for soviet we could do differently as in the form of an new carryall unit, it wont able to lift Mammoth, Demotruck,Chrono Tank or MADs. You could put engineers into flaktruck and lift it to get airtransport.
Alternately, but you know this is not really an alternative as naval and air transport are two different things, can give soviets an assault transport at sea with 15 carry capacity. (10 of chinook + 5 of hovercraft)
We could turn the Hind into an gunship armed with both anti-ground rocket and chaingun, and limited infantry carry capacity. As for how it gets produced only available via call-in support power, comes from off-map flying, its not under ai control, it simply flies to location you want then gets commandable. Ofcourse this idea is for the case giving it to soviets.
There is an tank hunter vehicle for allies in Dawn of Tiberian Age, i suppose with an few tweaks like increased range it can function well for sniping artillery in here.
Can experiment with giving medium tanks an secondary mg attack for anti-inf.
edit: as for strafing Yaks, why not both ? They can gain it as an elite weapon.

lawANDorder
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by lawANDorder » Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:34 pm

Re Yak strafing: How would strafing work? Would it just fire all ammo in one strafe at one target or would it fire all ammo at a vector in movement direction starting from the first target?

Green Giant
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Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by Green Giant » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:32 pm

Here is my idea.

Give Soviets the Hind and make Migs both ground and air to air attack.
Give Allies the Cobra helicopter for ground and the F-15 for air to air attack only.
No changes to Allies Apache.

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