If hinds were returned to soviet...

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
Post Reply
zinc
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:46 pm

If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by zinc » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:00 pm

Any ideas for how the game could be balanced if hinds were returned to Soviet? (A particular soviet faction?)

It's been suggested previously that the hind be replaced for allies with a slightly different design/name. That would be the least intrusive way (to gameplay how it is) to give hinds back to Soviets, but it would also maybe defeat the purpose, as it would still be a quite non-original way to do things.

However, if you wanted to go more towards the purity of the original, how would you balance it? How would the game work? Wouldn't Soviets have a big advantage?

And yes, major changes to how air works could easily upset some of the players.

ZxGanon
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:40 pm

Post by ZxGanon » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:38 pm

If thats the case than Hind needs to require soviet techlab and the removal of flaktracks would be necessary.

Would also cause to rethink Sam Site and AA Gun balance.

It would be a very bold move but also throw back OpenRAs balance to the stand of 2014.

User avatar
avalach21
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:01 pm

Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by avalach21 » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:42 pm

zinc wrote: Any ideas for how the game could be balanced if hinds were returned to Soviet? (A particular soviet faction?)

It's been suggested previously that the hind be replaced for allies with a slightly different design/name. That would be the least intrusive way (to gameplay how it is) to give hinds back to Soviets, but it would also maybe defeat the purpose, as it would still be a quite non-original way to do things.

However, if you wanted to go more towards the purity of the original, how would you balance it? How would the game work? Wouldn't Soviets have a big advantage?

And yes, major changes to how air works could easily upset some of the players.
I have thought about this.. First off I think the Soviets could get the helipad back and then be able to build Chinooks and Hinds. Maybe the Allies could get the APC too to keep it fair (it was theirs to begin with anyways)? Some of these general use units (naval transports, chinooks etc) were on both teams back then so I don't think it would be ridiculous if both teams had APCs.

I don't think it would be a huge balance change to let Soviets choose if they would rather have a yak or a hind, they both fill a similar role but it would be a preference to the player if they like the fight model of a yak or if they like the way the hind hovers in place. Maybe hinds would be used more for sight range and to give vision/cover to the ground army while yaks would be more hit & run.

Anyways yes.. the Allies desperately need something to fill the role of the Hind though.. so yes I am a RA purist and try to keep the game resembling the original as much as possible, but I also saw the huey"Iroquois" gunship model someone made like a year ago or so and it really didn't look bad. I wouldn't mind if aesthetically this replace the Hind for the allies, but if the unit function exactly the same stat wise under the hood.

Another idea that would keep it more towards the original game, but also be a bit difficult to implement functionally would be to have either 2 different longbows, one armed with a machine gun, and then one armed with missiles... but somehow you'd have to visually clarify which is which..

or another idea would be to have a longbow that you build at tier 2 and it only shoots the machine gun, but at tier 3 it somehow unlocks the missiles... (longbows missles ammo would not be able to fill until a tech center is built) it could either change between the armaments on its own (kind of like a mammoth tank) shooting chain gun at infantry and light vehicles and then shooting missiles at vehicles, other aircraft and ground units.. or you could manually change between the armaments (using a deploy function or something) You could have 2 separate ammo bars for each armament, or a really experimental idea would be to have the chain gun have unlimited ammo(like an orca in TD or something maybe if it gets too hot it needs to cool down before you can use it again) and then only the missiles would need to be refilled.

Just throwing some ideas at the wall to see if any stick :-)

User avatar
Happy
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:50 am

Post by Happy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:46 pm

Hinds are woven so hard into allies play removing them is basically impossible without upsetting the entire balance of the factions. Each faction has a unit that can carefully counter another with minor mixes. The only solution I can see is the Iroquois gunship thing though id prefers it to be a Cobra if we went down that route :D. Avalach has some good ideas to actually removing the hind as the name. But, in a game where we have aimed electricity guns, I don't understand the drive for realism. However, giving allies APC's will in no way band-aid the fact Soviets would now possess the ultimate crowd control weapon alongside yaks. Every unit has a function and the APC cannot replace the function of hinds for Allies.

The only way to give hinds back to soviets would be a hard reset of everything balance wise. Making the change and then applying plasters around it will not work.

zinc
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:46 pm

Post by zinc » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:49 pm

Yeah, give allies a near identical "cobra" or whatever you want to call it, and then, say, give one soviet faction both helis and yaks, or maybe hinds and transport helis for mid tech, and planes for high tech, and it would be a relatively moderate change, that wouldn't change gameplay too much.

User avatar
Happy
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:50 am

Post by Happy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:29 pm

zinc wrote: give one soviet faction both helis and yaks, or maybe hinds and transport helis for mid tech, and planes for high tech

zinc wrote: would be a relatively moderate change, that wouldn't change gameplay too much.
You're trolling right?

User avatar
anjew
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:16 am

Post by anjew » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:06 am

Happy wrote: The only solution I can see is the Iroquois gunship thing though id prefers it to be a Cobra if we went down that route :D. Avalach has some good ideas to actually removing the hind as the name.
This is the latest and possibly largest effort undertaken to rectify this situation.
https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/12836

Here is the 5 page discussion: http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/view ... 82&t=19975

The problem I see is if you just change the name, people will complain it looks like a Hind (as mortecha did), if you change the art people will complain about it not looking like the original and if you change its faction you will have people complaining about having to fix balance.
Happy wrote: Hinds are woven so hard into allies play removing them is basically impossible without upsetting the entire balance of the factions
Personally, I dont see this as a strong argument. Just because something has been wrong for a long time doesn't mean it should stay that way. And if this discussion is gunna happen once a year and if like the last one, it gets messy. Its probably more effective to fix the root cause of the issue rather than bandaid fixes.
Happy wrote: giving allies APC's
I agree, this is quite pointless because the actual problem is not Allies lack of APC, its Soviet lack of chinook. This creates an imbalance on any map with oil inaccessible by cliffs. The obvious 'fix' is to not make maps like that but that also isnt a fix
Image

User avatar
netnazgul
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 am
Location: Minsk
Contact:

Post by netnazgul » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:59 am

I'll just duplicate Smitty's post here :P
Smitty wrote: In OpenRA's lore not only did Albert Einstein kill Time-Hitler, but Soviet aerospace engineer Mikhail Mil became angry with Stalin for being a big meanie, and defected to the Allies with the designs for the Hind.

All you have to do is write ‘Why do Allies have the Hind? It is a Soviet weapon!’ in the FAQ section and attach the above text.

Boom, problem solved.

Red Alert is a world with time-travel, tesla death-rays and a crazy lady who out-ranges and massacres riflemen with dual .45s. ‘But this is how it works in the real world’ is a poor reason to change anything in this game.

As giving the Soviets the Hind would severely change game balance, and because I feel airpower is in a good and stable place, I oppose this idea.

SirCake
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:40 pm

Post by SirCake » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:58 am

Hey Zinc, like you said giving the hind to soviet and then just give some other intrusive model to allies doesn't make sense to me.
The golden path would be to stick to the campaign units (see allies, and soviet (beware, there are multiplayer only units there, too)) and make the MP game work from there by not introducing anything new, only changing invisibe "values". (asymetric balancing). That is the highest art of balancing and certainly not easy.

That said, balancing the Hind into MP game could be done by making the rocket soldier a better counter to hinds (by giving vision +1, and/or reducing hind damage to infantry) and removing the flac truck. This way both allies and soviet have to deal with the same problem (hinds) the same way, which is balanced. Just adjust the power levels of both rocket soldier vs hinds and hinds vs rocket soldier such that none feel overwhelmingly powerful.
Also note that soviets didn't have the rocket soldier at all in the campaign, so if you balance it like described above allies have an answer to hinds while not having access to the hind themselves. In soviet vs soviet both have to deal with the same problem (no mobile AA unit, provided the rocket soldier is removed), which is balanced, too.

Getting more and more intresed in this topic ^^ Zinc, I hope you provide us with a custom map with a balance attempt soon. I hope this isnt just empty talk and pointless discussion here :)

Check out Dune2k-Advanced on my moddb page!

User avatar
Happy
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:50 am

Post by Happy » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:12 am

anjew wrote: Personally, I dont see this as a strong argument. Just because something has been wrong for a long time doesn't mean it should stay that way.
Unfortunately, you could then apply this too many things. For example fog of war. Wasn't in the original therefore its wrong let's bin it. Multi-tab production is wrong lets bin it. There is nothing wrong with fixing Westwood's errors. If anything its wrong on Westwood to jack soviets up with a strong air force.
SirCake wrote: That said, balancing the Hind into MP game could be done by making the rocket soldier a better counter to hinds (by giving vision +1, and/or reducing hind damage to infantry) and removing the flac truck. This way both allies and soviet have to deal with the same problem (hinds) the same way, which is balanced. Just adjust the power levels of both rocket soldier vs hinds and hinds vs rocket soldier such that none feel overwhelmingly powerful.
This is all well and good but now what can allies use to counter the tier 2 artillery pieces? Hinds are the primary solution to sniping arties and v2s - the other option is barracks and pillboxes into their face. What can allies use as fast moving crowd control? Allies now lose their best way of countering shock troopers - the other ways (arties and tanya) very easily snipe with good yak micro unless they're nicely tucked into a base whereas you can drift hinds in and out the battle with their agility like leo messi cutting through a defence. Allies primary vision givers for artillery is now gone - Rangers aren't the best for this job because theyre a ground unit that can be sniped easily. Allies now lose the option of aerial base raids. This is all before tier 3. Allies would have to tech rush all the way to tier 3 to replace only portions of the hinds power.

On the flipside. Soviets now have the hind. They can now crowd control with ease and also snipe important units to structures with yaks in tandem. Plus the Chinnock and the APC providing transport for the soviets multiple cheese units (grens, rocket, flames, shockies) for a base raid.

The fixes of adjusting the rocket soldiers to be more powerful by giving them more range will affect even more things. For example, with +1 vision, you could use a rocket soldier like a dog in early game :D . If their damage is boosted too much then they will murder tanks too good.

In the current game hinds are absolutely instrumental to Allies success especially with the past 3 releases all been on powering soviets to their max.

User avatar
Sleipnir
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:52 pm
Contact:

Post by Sleipnir » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:10 pm

Happy wrote: This is all well and good but now what ... Allies would have to tech rush all the way to tier 3 to replace only portions of the hinds power.
These specific problems only exist if you were to insist on moving the Hind without making any other changes to compensate. That is silly, and nobody would seriously consider that as a reasonable idea.

A suggestion has already been offered that could avoid those:
avalach21 wrote: have a longbow that you build at tier 2 ... have the chain gun have unlimited ammo(like an orca in TD or something maybe if it gets too hot it needs to cool down before you can use it again) and then only the missiles would need to be refilled.

User avatar
AoAGeneral1
Posts: 585
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm

Re: If hinds were returned to soviet...

Post by AoAGeneral1 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:19 pm

zinc wrote: Any ideas for how the game could be balanced if hinds were returned to Soviet? (A particular soviet faction?)

It's been suggested previously that the hind be replaced for allies with a slightly different design/name. That would be the least intrusive way (to gameplay how it is) to give hinds back to Soviets, but it would also maybe defeat the purpose, as it would still be a quite non-original way to do things.

However, if you wanted to go more towards the purity of the original, how would you balance it? How would the game work? Wouldn't Soviets have a big advantage?

And yes, major changes to how air works could easily upset some of the players.
The posts mentioned above and I get where Happy is going with this as well. Replacing the Hind with a Cobra styled copter doesn't fix anything. Its just a re-skin with a now Hind asset locked in the files for non-use.

If the Hind were to be given to Soviets then what is the difference between Yak and Hind? Which performs better?

Theres also the consideration that if Soviets have Hinds, how dangerous is a flak truck mixed with Hinds going to be? Is that stronger then the allies AA gun base crawling advantage?

Stats to keep in mind:

Yak price 1350
Hind price 1350

Yak HP 6000
Hind HP 10000

Yak sight range 11c0
Hind sight range 10c0

----

Flak truck range gun 8c0
AA Gun range gun 10c0

Flak truck reveal shroud 6c0
AA Gun reveal shroud 6c0

User avatar
Happy
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:50 am

Post by Happy » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:40 pm

Sleipnir wrote:
Happy wrote: This is all well and good but now what ... Allies would have to tech rush all the way to tier 3 to replace only portions of the hinds power.
These specific problems only exist if you were to insist on moving the Hind without making any other changes to compensate. That is silly, and nobody would seriously consider that as a reasonable idea.

A suggestion has already been offered that could avoid those:
avalach21 wrote: have a longbow that you build at tier 2 ... have the chain gun have unlimited ammo(like an orca in TD or something maybe if it gets too hot it needs to cool down before you can use it again) and then only the missiles would need to be refilled.
I was replying to sircakes point of giving soviets hinds then balancing rocket soldiers too the hinds and then removing the flak truck. Wouldn't that solution be a win-win for you because now you can remove two absolute abominations of what RA is meant to be?

User avatar
Sleipnir
Posts: 678
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:52 pm
Contact:

Post by Sleipnir » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:56 pm

No, because even though some people are trying to derail the discussion by building a straw man that it is about "any changes from the original game is bad", that is not the case.

eskimo
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:59 pm

Post by eskimo » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:05 pm

Couple of points that i'd like to raise.

Do the devs notice large player number changes between releases? As the stance change was quite a big change and i wonder if that made an impact on player numbers much?

But i also feel, some of the OG fans dislike openra due to it's huge changes.

When looking at Cake's mod, or SoS mod, i rarely (if ever) see other players playing them outside of the modder hosting the games. Not arguing that big changes impact player numbers, but just putting it out there.

But also, Sovs could be master's of the air, and Allies be master's of the seas going by OG RA. If that were balanced, damage/health/speed/etc wise, do we want maps that are all 50% watery?

Currently, i like the way openra has options to play it. Not saying removing the Hind will end up in linear play, but putting the Yak and Hind in similar roles is essentially removing an option of playing imo.

Post Reply