2018 RA Balance

4/22/2018 Balance Update

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
User avatar
ZxGanon
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:40 pm

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by ZxGanon » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:17 pm

Either remove capturing Husks completely or do it like in TD where Engineers can take over them.

Rebalance the Mechanic after the change and also remove the HiJacker finally or make a Thief out of it for Soviets.

User avatar
Sleipnir
Posts: 715
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:52 pm
Contact:

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by Sleipnir » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:47 pm

anjew wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:14 pm
There is basically 3 options to fix the husk capture imbalance.
1. Give capturing to engineer only
2. Give mechanic to all sides
3. Completely remove it
Discussions in IRC have raised two more possibilities:

4. Keep mechanics as they are, but remove MCV husks.
5. Rework the behavior from a capture to a repair: the same way that you can only repair your own / team member's vehicles and that engineers can repair your own / allied buildings, only allow repairs on your own / team member's husks. They would then go back to the original owner, not the player who owns the mechanic. Enemy or neutral husks would not be targetable, the same way that enemy or neutral vehicles aren't.

User avatar
Smitty
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:33 am
Location: Oklahoma

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by Smitty » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:01 pm

Sleipnir wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:47 pm
4. Keep mechanics as they are, but remove MCV husks.
We could also revert the logic that maintains a husk's faction identity. Not the most appealing option but it would be the least invasive.

User avatar
Inq
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:48 am

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by Inq » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:47 am

Sleipnir wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:47 pm
5. Rework the behavior from a capture to a repair: the same way that you can only repair your own / team member's vehicles and that engineers can repair your own / allied buildings, only allow repairs on your own / team member's husks. They would then go back to the original owner, not the player who owns the mechanic. Enemy or neutral husks would not be targetable, the same way that enemy or neutral vehicles aren't.
I like 5, Although I've been thinking; what about keeping the Mechanic with the capture friendly husk ability & giving Engineers a "Salvage" function?

Salvage could be something like a percentage of the unit cost is returned when salvaging a husk, with the Engineer not being consumed OR
Consuming the Engineer on husk capture but the full unit cost plus the engineer cost is returned to the player?

Just some food for thought, I'm not sure how either would play with faction imbalance & player eco's; would probably require a good bit of testing.

User avatar
Smitty
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:33 am
Location: Oklahoma

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by Smitty » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:36 pm

Inq wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:47 am
what about keeping the Mechanic with the capture friendly husk ability & giving Engineers a "Salvage" function?
Engi husk salvage for credits is something I'm planning to test after the next release along with a veterancy rework.

User avatar
ZxGanon
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:40 pm

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by ZxGanon » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:04 pm

4. Keep mechanics as they are, but remove MCV husks.
I would try to avoid exceptions as often as possibleespecially in an RTS where traits should be in line to easen up the understanding.

User avatar
Sleipnir
Posts: 715
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:52 pm
Contact:

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by Sleipnir » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:33 pm

Further discussions on IRC have raised the point that option (1) plus Smitty's plans moved to the Mechanic integrates well with our long planned engineer capture changes to streamline and give coherent roles to RA's underutilised units.

Engineers: One-shot capturing of things.
- Capture buildings with a short external delay, then run inside and are consumed (C&C3:KW behaviour) - with an "Reusable Engineer" lobby option to restore something approximating the current behaviour to help compromise with the people who will object to the change.
- Capture husks immediately (no external delay), running inside and being consumed (C&C3 behaviour).

Mechanics: Vehicle support and cleanup
- Repairs friendly vehicles
- Salvages husks for a small cash bonus (5-10%)

Hijackers: RIP
- Removed from the game.
- Could possibly be reintroduced in a different role in the future, but this is IMO outside the scope of the current discussion.

IMO this checks all the boxes we could hope for with the the topic at hand:
- Fixes the MCV capturing imbalance by making it accessible to both sides
- Keeps a unique ability on the Mechanic to encourage its use on the battlefield
- Hopefully addresses engineers well enough to resolve the "kick in the teeth" deal-breaker style complaints.
- Removes a unit that has no compelling reason to exist and hurts the perception of OpenRA as a bug free and well polished game.
- Gives units intuitive roles, instead of relying on players to learn a grab-bag of features.

Conflating this with the engineer changes is risky, as I know that is a controversial topic (one of the main reasons it keeps being put off).

N/a
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:51 pm

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by N/a » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:11 pm

Why would you remove Hijackers? Yes they bug out but they are a super fun unit.

'Hurts the perception of OpenRA as a bug free and well polished game".

That perception has to exist for it to be hurt.

Eagle XI
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:00 pm

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by Eagle XI » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:56 am

Capture husks mechanic existed in C&C3 to let player have chance to regain lost slow and expensive unit. In RA only MCV, Mammoth and MAD tank can be considered worthy of reclaimation. Overall, here its an unnecessary mechanic.

User avatar
netnazgul
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 am
Location: Minsk
Contact:

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by netnazgul » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:50 pm

Wow, that is a nice update, Pchote. Will it make it into the playtest?

Also, probably the engineer building lock will need to be removed then, as engineers will become a bit stronger. Also, ext capture time will be shorter so it won't matter that much anyway.

User avatar
netnazgul
Posts: 359
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 am
Location: Minsk
Contact:

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by netnazgul » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:43 pm

Just had an interesting brainstorm in discord.

Reintroducing Hijacker/Thief as Saboteur, soviet covert unit:
- locking production queue for infiltrated buildings for X seconds
- resetting support powers (particularly interesting would be to reset GPS)
- overloading power grid (powerplants get damage over time, but produce more power for X seconds)

All in all a counterpart for Allied Spy.

User avatar
KOYK_GR
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:46 pm

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by KOYK_GR » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:03 pm

How about to let it be as it is and stop harassing the mental state of the players for once?

User avatar
FRenzy
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:00 am

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by FRenzy » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:16 pm

I find the new engy proposal interesting, as well as the potential migration of the Hijacker's role.

Printer
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:53 am

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by Printer » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:09 pm

netnazgul wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:43 pm
Reintroducing Hijacker/Thief as Saboteur, soviet covert unit:
- locking production queue for infiltrated buildings for X seconds
- resetting support powers (particularly interesting would be to reset GPS)
- overloading power grid (powerplants get damage over time, but produce more power for X seconds)
- locking production queue for infiltrated buildings for X seconds
Something I've never heard of before. Might it be possible to take the existing "production block" feature and add another type? Instead of the "Ready" and production halts when you block a WF or Air factor/reloading Glitch, it could say "Jammed" or "Halted". This wouldn't be overpowered if CY was exempt, and if there were other factories, the unit would just pop out there. It would certainly help encourage multiple MCVs / WF's. But it'd definitely be a unique ability- I don't know of another RTS with that type of a unit

- resetting support powers (particularly interesting would be to reset GPS)
Allies already can *sort of* do this with Power Plant de-powering. IF too powerful, adding time on the clock could work as well- like (5) mins.

- overloading power grid (powerplants get damage over time, but produce more power for X seconds)
I am curious if this is possible with the engine. If not, perhaps it could just be like a Crazy Ivan then- or Ordos Saboteur. Wasn't this what happened if you sent an Engineer into a building before damaging <20% in Classic RA?

User avatar
ZxGanon
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:40 pm

Re: 2018 RA Balance

Post by ZxGanon » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:37 pm

Sleipnir wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:33 pm
Further discussions on IRC have raised the point that option (1) plus Smitty's plans moved to the Mechanic integrates well with our long planned engineer capture changes to streamline and give coherent roles to RA's underutilised units.

Engineers: One-shot capturing of things.
- Capture buildings with a short external delay, then run inside and are consumed (C&C3:KW behaviour) - with an "Reusable Engineer" lobby option to restore something approximating the current behaviour to help compromise with the people who will object to the change.
- Capture husks immediately (no external delay), running inside and being consumed (C&C3 behaviour).

Mechanics: Vehicle support and cleanup
- Repairs friendly vehicles
- Salvages husks for a small cash bonus (5-10%)

Hijackers: RIP
- Removed from the game.
- Could possibly be reintroduced in a different role in the future, but this is IMO outside the scope of the current discussion.

IMO this checks all the boxes we could hope for with the the topic at hand:
- Fixes the MCV capturing imbalance by making it accessible to both sides
- Keeps a unique ability on the Mechanic to encourage its use on the battlefield
- Hopefully addresses engineers well enough to resolve the "kick in the teeth" deal-breaker style complaints.
- Removes a unit that has no compelling reason to exist and hurts the perception of OpenRA as a bug free and well polished game.
- Gives units intuitive roles, instead of relying on players to learn a grab-bag of features.

Conflating this with the engineer changes is risky, as I know that is a controversial topic (one of the main reasons it keeps being put off).
I love you.
Well maybe make a Thief out of the HiJacker but removing it for now is fine too. He is no win condition.

Those changes finally streamline the game and solve extreme faction imbalances between Soviets and Allies.

Now please give Soviets the Chinook! (and maybe the Sea Scorpion?)

Post Reply