2018 RA Balance
4/22/2018 Balance Update
Re: 2018 RA Balance
Either remove capturing Husks completely or do it like in TD where Engineers can take over them.
Rebalance the Mechanic after the change and also remove the HiJacker finally or make a Thief out of it for Soviets.
Rebalance the Mechanic after the change and also remove the HiJacker finally or make a Thief out of it for Soviets.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
Discussions in IRC have raised two more possibilities:
4. Keep mechanics as they are, but remove MCV husks.
5. Rework the behavior from a capture to a repair: the same way that you can only repair your own / team member's vehicles and that engineers can repair your own / allied buildings, only allow repairs on your own / team member's husks. They would then go back to the original owner, not the player who owns the mechanic. Enemy or neutral husks would not be targetable, the same way that enemy or neutral vehicles aren't.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
I like 5, Although I've been thinking; what about keeping the Mechanic with the capture friendly husk ability & giving Engineers a "Salvage" function?Sleipnir wrote: ↑Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:47 pm5. Rework the behavior from a capture to a repair: the same way that you can only repair your own / team member's vehicles and that engineers can repair your own / allied buildings, only allow repairs on your own / team member's husks. They would then go back to the original owner, not the player who owns the mechanic. Enemy or neutral husks would not be targetable, the same way that enemy or neutral vehicles aren't.
Salvage could be something like a percentage of the unit cost is returned when salvaging a husk, with the Engineer not being consumed OR
Consuming the Engineer on husk capture but the full unit cost plus the engineer cost is returned to the player?
Just some food for thought, I'm not sure how either would play with faction imbalance & player eco's; would probably require a good bit of testing.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
I would try to avoid exceptions as often as possibleespecially in an RTS where traits should be in line to easen up the understanding.4. Keep mechanics as they are, but remove MCV husks.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
Further discussions on IRC have raised the point that option (1) plus Smitty's plans moved to the Mechanic integrates well with our long planned engineer capture changes to streamline and give coherent roles to RA's underutilised units.
Engineers: One-shot capturing of things.
- Capture buildings with a short external delay, then run inside and are consumed (C&C3:KW behaviour) - with an "Reusable Engineer" lobby option to restore something approximating the current behaviour to help compromise with the people who will object to the change.
- Capture husks immediately (no external delay), running inside and being consumed (C&C3 behaviour).
Mechanics: Vehicle support and cleanup
- Repairs friendly vehicles
- Salvages husks for a small cash bonus (5-10%)
Hijackers: RIP
- Removed from the game.
- Could possibly be reintroduced in a different role in the future, but this is IMO outside the scope of the current discussion.
IMO this checks all the boxes we could hope for with the the topic at hand:
- Fixes the MCV capturing imbalance by making it accessible to both sides
- Keeps a unique ability on the Mechanic to encourage its use on the battlefield
- Hopefully addresses engineers well enough to resolve the "kick in the teeth" deal-breaker style complaints.
- Removes a unit that has no compelling reason to exist and hurts the perception of OpenRA as a bug free and well polished game.
- Gives units intuitive roles, instead of relying on players to learn a grab-bag of features.
Conflating this with the engineer changes is risky, as I know that is a controversial topic (one of the main reasons it keeps being put off).
Engineers: One-shot capturing of things.
- Capture buildings with a short external delay, then run inside and are consumed (C&C3:KW behaviour) - with an "Reusable Engineer" lobby option to restore something approximating the current behaviour to help compromise with the people who will object to the change.
- Capture husks immediately (no external delay), running inside and being consumed (C&C3 behaviour).
Mechanics: Vehicle support and cleanup
- Repairs friendly vehicles
- Salvages husks for a small cash bonus (5-10%)
Hijackers: RIP
- Removed from the game.
- Could possibly be reintroduced in a different role in the future, but this is IMO outside the scope of the current discussion.
IMO this checks all the boxes we could hope for with the the topic at hand:
- Fixes the MCV capturing imbalance by making it accessible to both sides
- Keeps a unique ability on the Mechanic to encourage its use on the battlefield
- Hopefully addresses engineers well enough to resolve the "kick in the teeth" deal-breaker style complaints.
- Removes a unit that has no compelling reason to exist and hurts the perception of OpenRA as a bug free and well polished game.
- Gives units intuitive roles, instead of relying on players to learn a grab-bag of features.
Conflating this with the engineer changes is risky, as I know that is a controversial topic (one of the main reasons it keeps being put off).
Re: 2018 RA Balance
Why would you remove Hijackers? Yes they bug out but they are a super fun unit.
'Hurts the perception of OpenRA as a bug free and well polished game".
That perception has to exist for it to be hurt.
'Hurts the perception of OpenRA as a bug free and well polished game".
That perception has to exist for it to be hurt.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
Capture husks mechanic existed in C&C3 to let player have chance to regain lost slow and expensive unit. In RA only MCV, Mammoth and MAD tank can be considered worthy of reclaimation. Overall, here its an unnecessary mechanic.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
Wow, that is a nice update, Pchote. Will it make it into the playtest?
Also, probably the engineer building lock will need to be removed then, as engineers will become a bit stronger. Also, ext capture time will be shorter so it won't matter that much anyway.
Also, probably the engineer building lock will need to be removed then, as engineers will become a bit stronger. Also, ext capture time will be shorter so it won't matter that much anyway.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
Just had an interesting brainstorm in discord.
Reintroducing Hijacker/Thief as Saboteur, soviet covert unit:
- locking production queue for infiltrated buildings for X seconds
- resetting support powers (particularly interesting would be to reset GPS)
- overloading power grid (powerplants get damage over time, but produce more power for X seconds)
All in all a counterpart for Allied Spy.
Reintroducing Hijacker/Thief as Saboteur, soviet covert unit:
- locking production queue for infiltrated buildings for X seconds
- resetting support powers (particularly interesting would be to reset GPS)
- overloading power grid (powerplants get damage over time, but produce more power for X seconds)
All in all a counterpart for Allied Spy.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
How about to let it be as it is and stop harassing the mental state of the players for once?
Re: 2018 RA Balance
I find the new engy proposal interesting, as well as the potential migration of the Hijacker's role.
Re: 2018 RA Balance
- locking production queue for infiltrated buildings for X secondsnetnazgul wrote: ↑Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:43 pmReintroducing Hijacker/Thief as Saboteur, soviet covert unit:
- locking production queue for infiltrated buildings for X seconds
- resetting support powers (particularly interesting would be to reset GPS)
- overloading power grid (powerplants get damage over time, but produce more power for X seconds)
Something I've never heard of before. Might it be possible to take the existing "production block" feature and add another type? Instead of the "Ready" and production halts when you block a WF or Air factor/reloading Glitch, it could say "Jammed" or "Halted". This wouldn't be overpowered if CY was exempt, and if there were other factories, the unit would just pop out there. It would certainly help encourage multiple MCVs / WF's. But it'd definitely be a unique ability- I don't know of another RTS with that type of a unit
- resetting support powers (particularly interesting would be to reset GPS)
Allies already can *sort of* do this with Power Plant de-powering. IF too powerful, adding time on the clock could work as well- like (5) mins.
- overloading power grid (powerplants get damage over time, but produce more power for X seconds)
I am curious if this is possible with the engine. If not, perhaps it could just be like a Crazy Ivan then- or Ordos Saboteur. Wasn't this what happened if you sent an Engineer into a building before damaging <20% in Classic RA?
Re: 2018 RA Balance
I love you.Sleipnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:33 pmFurther discussions on IRC have raised the point that option (1) plus Smitty's plans moved to the Mechanic integrates well with our long planned engineer capture changes to streamline and give coherent roles to RA's underutilised units.
Engineers: One-shot capturing of things.
- Capture buildings with a short external delay, then run inside and are consumed (C&C3:KW behaviour) - with an "Reusable Engineer" lobby option to restore something approximating the current behaviour to help compromise with the people who will object to the change.
- Capture husks immediately (no external delay), running inside and being consumed (C&C3 behaviour).
Mechanics: Vehicle support and cleanup
- Repairs friendly vehicles
- Salvages husks for a small cash bonus (5-10%)
Hijackers: RIP
- Removed from the game.
- Could possibly be reintroduced in a different role in the future, but this is IMO outside the scope of the current discussion.
IMO this checks all the boxes we could hope for with the the topic at hand:
- Fixes the MCV capturing imbalance by making it accessible to both sides
- Keeps a unique ability on the Mechanic to encourage its use on the battlefield
- Hopefully addresses engineers well enough to resolve the "kick in the teeth" deal-breaker style complaints.
- Removes a unit that has no compelling reason to exist and hurts the perception of OpenRA as a bug free and well polished game.
- Gives units intuitive roles, instead of relying on players to learn a grab-bag of features.
Conflating this with the engineer changes is risky, as I know that is a controversial topic (one of the main reasons it keeps being put off).
Well maybe make a Thief out of the HiJacker but removing it for now is fine too. He is no win condition.
Those changes finally streamline the game and solve extreme faction imbalances between Soviets and Allies.
Now please give Soviets the Chinook! (and maybe the Sea Scorpion?)