Playtest Discussion

Playtest 20180102

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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IronScion
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Post by IronScion » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:45 am

I liked the possibility of ranking up a harvester using a crate for the sake of getting it a speed boost. I think having non-fighting units ranking up is a nice feature and, while it's a seriously minor issue, I'd change it back given the choice.
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Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:30 pm

I'd like to chime in on the some of the changes, particularly those effecting artillery/v2.

Firstly I'm slightly against the minimum range increase. V2's now have a 5 cell gap of acceptable range. This makes them very hard to use (as was intended) but I think it takes it too far. V2's were supposed to be more agile than their counterpart but with this change the opposite is true. Getting caught in transition from one cell to another or reloading makes them way too fragile. Additionally, because units retarget the closest unit, they will often be forced to turn around unless you've shift queued an attack order. Considering shift queuing also takes into account their current action you're putting a lot of labor into microing them.

Secondly, I'm very against the change to how units engage into the fog (aka the change meant to nerf GPS). I get why we want to nerf GPS but this is having a much greater and far negative effect. Now even if you've previously scouted a base you can't assault move to just sweep buildings that you've seen. You either need vision again or have to manually click. The last thing we need to is make vision even more valuable. It's already easy enough to snipe down a yak/hind and deny vision. Without vision arty/v2 tend to bug out on the assault move as their vision is their minimum range. So the first ones tend to just drive like a move order. This also effects anything with a higher range than sight (yay cruisers got buffed only to be nerfed harder!). Rifleman/rockets both need vision in front of them otherwise they too will engage at danger close. At least with them, you usually have some sort of tank shielding and their range isn't much bigger than their sight.

But more importantly requiring manual targeting of the buildings opens the way to getting a lot of units killed when someone sells the building but the actor's image still appears in the fog. Sell the building and the units will just walk to the point they were supposed to attack. That bug has been around forever and its going to cause a lot of headaches if this playtest goes to release. It's already very annoying when someone undeploys/redeploys to cancel and attack order.

What's going to happen is you're going to see far less mobile v2/arty play (which was already on the harder side to do) and instead more camping with them in a base. Games are going to slow down and become very campy.

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:30 am

Blackened wrote: Secondly, I'm very against the change to how units engage into the fog (aka the change meant to nerf GPS). I get why we want to nerf GPS but this is having a much greater and far negative effect. Now even if you've previously scouted a base you can't assault move to just sweep buildings that you've seen. You either need vision again or have to manually click.
The only intentional change to units engaging into the fog is that the GPS satellite no longer affects unit behaviour. Any other differences from the last release are likely to be regressions. If there are regressions there then they (as far as I know) have not been reported upstream, and so right now have a 0% chance of being fixed. It is important that you or someone else files an issue with a lot more detail about how to reproduce the problem.
Blackened wrote: But more importantly requiring manual targeting of the buildings opens the way to getting a lot of units killed when someone sells the building but the actor's image still appears in the fog. Sell the building and the units will just walk to the point they were supposed to attack. That bug has been around forever and its going to cause a lot of headaches if this playtest goes to release. It's already very annoying when someone undeploys/redeploys to cancel and attack order.
If GPS is enabled then the building image should be immediately cleared (this is one of the bonuses granted by the GPS satellite) and behaviour should match previous releases. As above, if GPS is disabled then behaviour should also match the previous releases.

eskimo
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Post by eskimo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:56 pm

IronScion wrote: I liked the possibility of ranking up a harvester using a crate for the sake of getting it a speed boost. I think having non-fighting units ranking up is a nice feature and, while it's a seriously minor issue, I'd change it back given the choice.
Agreed. Ranked non fighting units is rather funny part of the game. Always brings a laugh in team games.

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anjew
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Post by anjew » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:22 am

STUKA wrote: Global Chat GONE :(
:((((((((((((((((

eskimo wrote: Agreed. Ranked non fighting units is rather funny part of the game. Always brings a laugh in team games.
At least they can still pick up crates.

I am curious though. I presume crates are decide whats in them when a unit rolls over them not when they enter map. Does this actually effectively increase the chances for the harvesters to get any other pick up?
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MustaphaTR
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Post by MustaphaTR » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:30 pm

Change of a crate powerup to appear is "its SelectionShare/total SelectionShare of possible powerups". Being impossible to appear in that crate decreases "total SelectionShare of possible powerups" part, increasing changes of other stuff to appear a bit.

http://openra-red-alert.wikia.com/wiki/Crate (Values there are for release version)

Edit: For example with release values, a Soviet Player with all required tech for units has 50/150 change to get $1000. If the taker unit is elite (it can't get anymore rank). Changes that cash will appear increases to 50/110.

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Smitty
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Post by Smitty » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:02 pm

Blackened wrote: -snip-
Related to https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/14734 ?
"Do not trust the balance tzars (Smitty, Orb). They are making the changes either for the wrong reasons, for no reason at all, or just because they can and it makes them feel good." - Alex Jones

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:30 pm

^ Yes.

I've also come to realize firing into fog is working as is intended. I could have swore in previous releases you would auto target buildings you've seen in the fog.

alwalo
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Post by alwalo » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:38 pm

Hey i am long time RTS player, just started playing openra lately. Since you plan to nerf GPS is there really problem in players going for tech center ? I watched some casted games on youtube and it seems like tech center rarely goes into play and even then you have to wait full 8:00 minutes. More often then not it feels like win more option.

Maybe i am wrong but wouldn't it be better idea to actually buff higher Tier stuff ?

V2 nerf is too bad, it has less range then art and thus cover much less effective attack area now.

Really like other changes, trying to buff France is great idea.

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Smitty
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Post by Smitty » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:49 pm

alwalo wrote: V2 nerf is too bad, it has less range then art and thus cover much less effective attack area now.
After hearing more feedback from the playtest, I dialed back the minimum range reduction from 5c0 to 4c0. This will be an extra one-cell minimum range for Arty and V2s from the current release instead of two.

https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/14753
"Do not trust the balance tzars (Smitty, Orb). They are making the changes either for the wrong reasons, for no reason at all, or just because they can and it makes them feel good." - Alex Jones

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:31 pm


STUKA
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Post by STUKA » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:59 am

Id still like to see the Global Chat return 8)

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:41 pm

A discussion for the next playtest has been created here!

zinc
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Post by zinc » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Smitty wrote:
alwalo wrote: V2 nerf is too bad, it has less range then art and thus cover much less effective attack area now.
After hearing more feedback from the playtest, I dialed back the minimum range reduction from 5c0 to 4c0. This will be an extra one-cell minimum range for Arty and V2s from the current release instead of two.

https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/14753
Generally speaking, I wouldn't say that V2 was worse than artillery even with the shorter range. They can be lethal especially with iron curtain applied. It's near guaranteed destruction of 1 or 2 targets.

However they may not be as good at taking out mass infantry as artillery and minimum range may make a difference if you are getting overwhelmed by an attack. As far as I can understand the change, this may make it harder for V2 to counter infantry?

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