Is Naval Balanced Between Soviet and Allies?

Discussion about the game and its default mods.

Is Naval Balanced?

It's balanced no problem
4
17%
It's unfair to Soviets, but can be fixed just by tinkering with original units
6
26%
It's unfair to Soviets, and probably the only way to fix is with an extra unit
10
43%
It's unfair to Allies
3
13%
 
Total votes: 23

zinc
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:46 pm

Is Naval Balanced Between Soviet and Allies?

Post by zinc » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:47 pm

What do people think?

It's balanced?

It's not balanced, but can be fixed just by tinkering with the original units?

It's not balanced, and the only way to fix the issue is with an extra (non-original) unit being given to Soviets? Is a flak sub needed, or something like that?

eskimo
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:59 pm

Post by eskimo » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:22 pm

Sircake has a a build that has some changes like flak sub in the map testing thread worth look at.

zinc
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:46 pm

Post by zinc » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:38 pm

It's probably reasonable to also take account of air power in addition to naval. On any water map, you will probably be using both in combination.

Is it too easy for allies to destroy sub pens with helis? Until you have at least a couple of missile subs (which means teching up first) they are pretty much without defence.

zinc
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:46 pm

Post by zinc » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:43 pm

[quote="eskimo" post_id="305603"]Sircake has a a build that has some changes like flak sub in the map testing thread worth look at.[/quote]

I have played one of his maps. The way the flak sub worked was interesting with you deciding when to submerge it.

Printer
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:53 am

Post by Printer » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:24 am

Wouldn't it be more obvious that the transports need a buff to their capacity? Amphibious assaults require concerto of micro right now.

TBH I think Navy is balanced as it is right now and the problem is simply Hinds are too strong. Long bows should be able counter subs, but the fact is Hinds do ludicrous damage to subs and require (2) direct hits to kill from a Missle Sub. $1350 kills $2000. Seems like a problem when an Anti Air unit is countered by an Air unit.

If hinds could do less to subs or have lower health in general, I think the air problem is solved.

User avatar
Clockwork
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:50 am
Contact:

Post by Clockwork » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:27 pm

Printer wrote: Wouldn't it be more obvious that the transports need a buff to their capacity? Amphibious assaults require concerto of micro right now.

TBH I think Navy is balanced as it is right now and the problem is simply Hinds are too strong. Long bows should be able counter subs, but the fact is Hinds do ludicrous damage to subs and require (2) direct hits to kill from a Missle Sub. $1350 kills $2000. Seems like a problem when an Anti Air unit is countered by an Air unit.

If hinds could do less to subs or have lower health in general, I think the air problem is solved.
Becareful because you might be fixing your problem to navy but you can't tell the effect on inland battles with hinds. Hinds are pretty weak and lowering their health even more would make them pretty awful crowd controllers. Also keep in mind the 2,000 for the missile sub is not just for the AA but the fact it can fire over huge distances like an artillery. But I do agree the missile subs need some sort of AA protection. This is where the flak sub/scorpion boat come in :)

User avatar
MustaphaTR
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:38 am
Location: Kastamonu, Turkey

Post by MustaphaTR » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:35 pm

One thing i see with Naval Units is that all subs use light and all ships use heavy armor. Giving Missile Sub heavy armor may fix them vs Hinds. Longbows can kill them then, but wouldn't be as problematic as losing them vs Hinds imo.

User avatar
Kiraye
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:29 pm

Post by Kiraye » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:29 pm

Happy wrote:
Printer wrote: Wouldn't it be more obvious that the transports need a buff to their capacity? Amphibious assaults require concerto of micro right now.

TBH I think Navy is balanced as it is right now and the problem is simply Hinds are too strong. Long bows should be able counter subs, but the fact is Hinds do ludicrous damage to subs and require (2) direct hits to kill from a Missle Sub. $1350 kills $2000. Seems like a problem when an Anti Air unit is countered by an Air unit.

If hinds could do less to subs or have lower health in general, I think the air problem is solved.
Becareful because you might be fixing your problem to navy but you can't tell the effect on inland battles with hinds. Hinds are pretty weak and lowering their health even more would make them pretty awful crowd controllers. Also keep in mind the 2,000 for the missile sub is not just for the AA but the fact it can fire over huge distances like an artillery. But I do agree the missile subs need some sort of AA protection. This is where the flak sub/scorpion boat come in :)

The issue Printer brought up is not directly caused by the Hind being too strong vs subs, but the Missile Sub seriously underperforming vs Air units. Really you pay 2000 for an Artillery on water, nothing else atm, the AA is just for show, nothing of value there, with a pathetic damage per second of 7.5hp/sec vs Air units. Changing armor type wouldn't solve the issue it really has. Also adding a new unit to fix what the Missile sub should do in the first place?

The conclusion is that it is the firepower lacking not the survivability.

Few ideas:
1.) Increase its AA missile range from 8 to 16 (to match AG). This way it would have enough time to submerge and reload while somewhat compensating for its lackluster dps. It would also encourage the Missile Sub to be supported by scouting Aircraft (or other subs) for you to take advantade of the extra range while making it still vulnerable for Hinds (and other Aircraft) to take out unsupported Missile Subs it they dare to fire or engage the Air units at close range. You know combined arms and stuff.

2.) Increase the damage(from 45 per rocket to 50 per rocket for example) to take out a Hind in 1 volley. This would only fix 1v1 vs Hinds, but they are rarely alone so most likely the Missile sub would be taken out by another Hind, making it an unfavorable trade(1350 vs 2000 lost) in most situations. Now in this case the Armor change could come in handy. Although these buffs( Armor change with a damage buff to 1 shot Hinds) would only address the Hind issue specifically, since Longbows would kill the Missile Sub anyway, Yaks and MIG interaction would be the same as before. (meaning Missile Subs being borderline useless against Soviet Aircraft) In this case being useless against 100% of the Air unit pool, they will be useless against 75% of them :)

It really depends what are the main goal is:
1.) To increase general AA capability, making it an actual AA unit.
OR
2.) To fix specific issue vs Hind only.

SirCake
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:40 pm

Post by SirCake » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:29 pm

Cant leave Happys comment uncommented like this ....because surely he is joking...
Hinds are NOT weak at all.
They kill twice as many infantry as a yak and have 66% more HP at the same price. Even if only killing riflemen ONE ammo load deals 1200$ in asset damage +120$ bounty, paying off the Hind.
They kill their soviet counter(flak truck) in a 1v1 battle.
They shred msubs as well.
They kill small batches of rocket soldiers without giving them any chance of retaliation.
They have so much vision they can fly around sam sites unscathed.
The only reason they might seem weak in any circumstance is because AA gun deployment speed and attack power is straight up silly.

This is more general and not related to happys comment:
Msubs are useless (at both of their roles). They can't hit soviet aircraft because of their abysmal turn rate, even at point blank range, which was clearly an oversight by SoS. They hit jack shit with their artillery missiles. In my playtest I basically increased their attack power by +300%, their range by +100% AND gave them tracking missiles and still people don't consider them OP.
Last edited by SirCake on Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Check out Dune2k-Advanced on my moddb page!

User avatar
Clockwork
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:50 am
Contact:

Post by Clockwork » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:39 pm

SirCake wrote: Cant leave Happys comment uncommented like this ....because surely he is joking...
Hinds are NOT weak at all.
They kill twice as many infantry as a yak and have 66% more HP at the same price. Even if only killing riflemen ONE ammo load deals 1200$ in asset damage +120$ bounty, paying off the Hind.
They kill their soviet counter(flak truck) in a 1v1 battle.
They shred msubs as well.
They kill small batches of rocket soldiers without giving them any chance of retaliation.
They have so much vision they can fly around sam sites unscathed.
The only reason they might seem weak in any circumstance is because AA gun deployment speed and attack power is straight up silly.

This is more general and not related to happys comment:
Msubs are useless (at both of their roles). They can't hit soviet aircraft because of their abysmal turn rate, even at point blank range, which was clearly an oversight by SoS. They hit jack shit with their artillery missiles. In my playtest I basically increased their attack power by 400% AND gave them tracking missiles and still people don't consider them OP.
Weak as in their health, not their overall power - they're beasts.

SirCake
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:40 pm

Post by SirCake » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:11 pm

Hinds are pretty weak
?
Write down what you intend to say, man.
I get triggerd if someone of your caliber (who should know better) suggests the hind is bad.

Check out Dune2k-Advanced on my moddb page!

User avatar
WhoCares
Posts: 287
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:28 pm

Post by WhoCares » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:22 pm

Happy wrote: Weak as in their health,.
"
-Camarad dimitry, your hinds looks strong !
-Da, but it's not, it can only resist up to 4 direct hits of ground to air missile. The fifth is lethal
"
I wish we had heli pilots amongst the players.

User avatar
avalach21
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:01 pm

Post by avalach21 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:07 am

Allow the MIG to shoot air to air.. balance around this. problem solved.

User avatar
netnazgul
Posts: 442
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:32 am
Location: Minsk
Contact:

Post by netnazgul » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:56 am

avalach21 wrote: Allow the MIG to shoot air to air.. balance around this. problem solved.
how exactly does THIS solve any problems with naval... Do you have your nickname number divided by 20 against your usual nickname?

As for the topic - highly likely that soviet need a dedicated AA unit (flak trap is my favourite). Because making Missile Sub universally effective will lead to Missile Sub spam that is counter to everything due to its range and submerged state (1-2 msubs for early scout detect, the rest just shred any incoming threat).

Someone (I don't remember, prob. ZxGanon) pointed out that giving msub heavy armor makes it highly insusceptible to air damage, which can lead to soviet dominating naval once they destroy all shipyards - allied player won't be able to enter the water again because subs kill shipyards right away and he won't be able to deal with subs through air because they become more effective against air than air against them. This is also an important balance point for adding units too.

User avatar
Kiraye
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:29 pm

Post by Kiraye » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:00 pm

netnazgul wrote:
avalach21 wrote: Allow the MIG to shoot air to air.. balance around this. problem solved.
how exactly does THIS solve any problems with naval... Do you have your nickname number divided by 20 against your usual nickname?

As for the topic - highly likely that soviet need a dedicated AA unit (flak trap is my favourite). Because making Missile Sub universally effective will lead to Missile Sub spam that is counter to everything due to its range and submerged state (1-2 msubs for early scout detect, the rest just shred any incoming threat).

Someone (I don't remember, prob. ZxGanon) pointed out that giving msub heavy armor makes it highly insusceptible to air damage, which can lead to soviet dominating naval once they destroy all shipyards - allied player won't be able to enter the water again because subs kill shipyards right away and he won't be able to deal with subs through air because they become more effective against air than air against them. This is also an important balance point for adding units too.
Well I don't think it would make them universally effective, if it could be a decent AA platform as it is advertised in its description. Its would be still useless against naval units, imagine this Missile Sub spam, that could be ruined by 500$ Gunboats.
Even now, without minimum range on Missile Subs, (which they should have as a sidenote, for paritiy with the Cruiser) Naval units, such as Gunboats, Destroyers and Submarine could make short work of them.
For example: you have this so called Missile Sub spam, lets say you have 4 of them, thats 8k assets. Lets be minimalist here, use 4 Gunboats(2k assets) against them with minimal to moderate micro you can kill all the Missile Subs, pretty much with no-to-minimal losses.

Making the Missile Subs armor Heavy would only increase effectiveness of the Depth Charge against them (from doing 60 damage vs Light to 80 damage vs Heavy armor, which means instead of 7 shots, one Missile Sub would be killed in 5 shots.) And I am not supportive of the armor change anyway, but there is some trade offs to that change in some situation.

Also adding the Flak sub won't really change the situation where the soviets dominated naval once they destroyed the shipyards. Flak Subs would kill Air units anyway, unless you want the Flak Subs to be useless against Air also, in which case we are back where we started. And I am not against some new units, don't get me wrong here, but unlike the Sniper which could add some depth gameplay-wise if fine-tuned correctly, the Flak Subs offer nothing of value, that some tweaking with the Missile Sub can't fix.

Post Reply