How do you rate the new RA release?

Discussion about the game and its default mods.

How do you rate the new RA release

1 (love it)
18
38%
2
7
15%
3 (no change for me)
4
9%
4
9
19%
5 (hate it)
9
19%
 
Total votes: 47

OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:00 am

anjew wrote: I think they say that because they know, as well as many other players, that their is a glaring exploit when shroud is turned off yet I think everyone acts as if its part of game. I'd argue the hardcore players prefer shroud off :p
What's the exploit? If it's the frozen actor thing under fog, that will inevitably happen if you start with shroud on or off.

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anjew
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Post by anjew » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:45 am

OMnom wrote: -snip-
I'm referring to: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/5908
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OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:59 am

Ah. Yeah this sucks, but it's not completely game-breaking...even if my opponent knows im mining from a certain location, it doesn't give away the position of my army, and it doesn't necessarily give away the position of my MCV either. I would say these two are much more important to keep hidden than the fact I have a refinery in the top-right corner or something. At the end of the day, given the vast amount of maps people are constantly playing on, i think having the shroud off is more beneficial than harmful.

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anjew
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Post by anjew » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:15 am

OMnom wrote: -snip-
I would argue that if players want to be good at a game/map they need to be able to play with shroud off and in Masters the shroud should be turned off to promote a higher skill level needed to maintain the position. It technically more harmful, in my opinion, because when a player who has played with explored map goes into a lobby with no explored map, any number of mistakes can be made and taken advantage of.

Regarding the actual exploit, it's more insidious than you think. It prevents someone moving at the start because it is very easy to determine where they have moved and it also tells you about the enemies expansions. It's not even the fact that you know where, its the fact that you know what your opponent has done based of the minimap. If you see a ore being eaten up somewhere other than the main, you know that the player has gone SD MCV and already expanded. If you are good with timings, you could probably determine whether or not they have a radar. If you are really fucking good, you could probably work out how many harvesters they have too.

That exploit seems very small but to a smart player, they can abuse it to no end.
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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:13 am

You already know the flames Happy. It was from you.


I agree the exploits for shroud is pretty bad. It doesnt tell army location but a base location. Shutting a mining spot down is deadly.

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:07 am

Let's not focus on that again, it serves no purpose and the thread is pretty constructive in general, so let's keep that up.
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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:28 pm

AoAGeneral1 wrote: You already know the flames Happy. It was from you.


I agree the exploits for shroud is pretty bad. It doesnt tell army location but a base location. Shutting a mining spot down is deadly.
I expected a better responce :( dont be enciting anymore anger please only positive vibes :)

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Graion Dilach
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Post by Graion Dilach » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:05 pm

noobmapmaker wrote: @Graion: I did not meant that Red Alert itself attracts developers, but that a sound and large competitive scene is good for overall OpenRA growth. It's a catalyst for many aspects of OpenRA, one of them being the casts on youtube and Twitch, and this leads to more exposure and eventually more players. Of those players 0.01% (or so) is interested in modding and developing and eventually - I think - will bring more people who actively contribute to development (not only by coding, but also by reporting bugs, discussing on Github).
This didn't worked for OpenArena. It had it's peak around 2007-2011 (depends on whom you're asking, either 0.7.1 will be the best release, either 0.8.8, because 0.7.6 was the first release shipped with the then-rewritten SDL input handling in ioquake3). After 0.8.8, the main developer decided to restart a good amount of the project entirely to reduce the visual clutter as OA3 (the 0.X versions are basically "whatever GPLv2-compatible stuff we found/created, we throw-it-in" and the result were superinconstistent visuals).

Now it's 2017. OA3 is still WIP, still seems to be really far away, and the supporting crew of the project (besides this leader) are a bunch of people who've from the casual scene sticking around since that era I mentioned (excluding one mapper whom joined to the OA community, I think, around 2014).

95% of the pro scene moved on and the remaining 5% doesn't really contribute back either.
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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:30 pm

It has been a long time since this thread was made and the sample size of 44 in the poll is perfect to start drawing conclusions from data.

Firstly analysing the data its important to understand the expected model of customer satisfaction is to resemble an exponential graph. Or at bare minimum a normal distribution with a mean of "don't care". The data from the poll shows neither, the graph shape is a ravine. This is huge alarm bells in my eyes and issues need rectifying immediately for best player satisfaction and maximum player retention that is needed for the growth of the RA community.

Currently half of the players have one or more issues with the release which is very bad. This can be attributed to the targeting changes but there is a near equal support for it with positive views - the targeting change is a huge pivot that I'll discuss at the end of the analysis.

It is vital to recognise not all of the negative reviews are attributed to targeting and there are real issues made by players that need fixing.

There are many issues I've seen in game and discussed on the forum here that are not related to the targeting change. Also to differentiate complaints that aren't a split opinion such as targeting or balance changes but simple ease of life fixes. This includes but not limited to:

- Option to hide the new UI (perfect for new players but in the way of an experienced player).

- Fixing the glitch of the radar revealing harvested ore patches.

- Automatically surrendering players if they disconnect while there is no option to reconnect to the game.

- A permanent fix to the chat spam bug that currently only has a server side hot fix I believe (learnt from my friend who hosts servers), the hotfix kills ram or something like that I don't really know.

The list is endless but these are the current issues that need ASAP attention to have a high player retention. As well these fixes would move a lot of the "hate it" voters to the "like it" side which will start to create the exponential model I talked about earlier.

Now onto targeting. The general trend is that the majority of competitive players dislike targeting and many have made their opinion known on here. However the majority of single player gamers and modders love it. Team players so far I have seen are 50/50 on the issue. Now targeting can be approached in so many different ways that can be interpreted in many different ways and many points can be countered and then countered on top of that by another point etc etc until were both bored of fighting. Now it is clear that the response by the development team is that targeting is staying. It is time to stop fighting it because the fight has been made and done and while I personally think it is an awful decision, it is staying. Special attention and support should now be given to Smitty to mold and balance RA around the new changes, such as balancing tech units now that fast tech is becoming the norm.

Keep in mind however the poll was directed at the RA mod only. Any votes and feedback with TD and Dune2k release in mind are not valid and could've influenced the poll with an unknown difference. As far as I'm aware the majority of TD players are happy with targeting and the release as a whole. Before anyone takes that out of context I'm not saying our Tiberium friends opinions don't matter, this thread is the wrong place for feedback on the TD Mod in relation to the release. However if the vote and feedback is on the RA mod exclusively then the above sentence is mute - just a point to consider.

Now comes to the finale and it's on the value of the competitive scene to the project. As NoobMapMaker rightfully stated - the competitive scene is vital to the growth of the community of RA and its player retention. I agree that the game of OpenRA is not what attracts devs but the engine itself - I get that. But what is the point of working on a huge project that is very old now if only a few players actually enjoy their time and effort. Now if OpenRA is just a fun project and is like painting mini-figurines and models and the players don't really matter then please say because we will all stop and drift away and the development can go uninterrupted at fast speeds to the vision of the creator. Current OpenRA has a very strong community and if that is to continue then more emphasis on dialogue between players and devs.

Yes I know there's an IRC but I am 17 ,dumb and don't want to piss about with an IRC client and software older than me to help and befriend people. A lot of important dialogue and issues is not brought to the developers eyes by players because they literally don't know how to find the communication channels. Hence why a lot of people share their problems on the Discord only to be rebuffed with "talk on the IRC", what IRC, where?? Even Catgirls didn't know about IRC or the forum and spent 2 days spamming up the discord.

In conclusion,
To bring player satisfaction to the exponential model then small problems that dissatisfy players must be fixed quickly to keep the player retention high. Players issues with the stance changes will move from "hate it" to "don't care" after time as long as correct changes are made to the balance of units to reduce dissatisfaction at certain elements (such as the current artillery apocalypse).

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Post by lucassss » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:41 pm

Just want to say that as a minorly competitive player, I think there should be a way to balance the game that doesn't rely on silly glitches and unwanted behavior. For me the building as tank thing was a bug that we abused, not something that should be in a game. Admittedly in my ideal world I would also be happy if rifles only shot infantry and rockets only shot tanks, but I'm willing to accept that this is part of the original ra's legacy.

Maybe I'm naive or dumb or something, but do all competitive players think it is impossible to balance things without having the game act against your will?

Also, I just want to say I really don't like all the criticism that is being directed to the developers here. As someone who contributes and uses open source, I must say that the ora developer community is very friendly and communicating. Even when I don't agree with them about something, I can get an answer instead of just being ignored, as things are in bigger projects. You guys should appreciate more what you have here.

Finally, I just want to say that there was another open source RTS that I really enjoyed, ZeroK. One of the main problems that ruin ZeroK for me (both in terms of game balance and huge team games for lolz instead of for skill) is that there's tons of infighting, hostility, smurfing, and developer-player segregation. The last is already a problem in OpenRA but the others aren't. Please, let's keep OpenRA a friendly gaming community, there are so few left nowadays.

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Graion Dilach
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Post by Graion Dilach » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:00 pm

What's the problem with the new UI? I don't think it can be hidden at this stage, keyboards commands are also channeled through that one now instead of on the global screen (a bug in this caused the click-sound-on-keyboard-action playtest bug).

Also, do note that the OpenRA-RA community isn't equal to OpenRA community. It's true that at this stage, CD is the sole thirdparty project with a mentionworthy community formed around it, but communities like CD's add up to OpenRA's own community while not necessarily adding to the RA mod's. Please keep that also in mind while discussing the points of devs - half of the current devs have their own personal mod projects more or less announced - reaperrr's MechWarrior-meets-C&C, warman's RAHD, that classicRA hamb wants to do, IceReaperrr's KKND, MustaphaTR's Generals Alpha...

Hell, I doubt anyone would take me part of the OpenRA-RA community either, but I'm part of the generic ORA community for sure.
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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:58 am

Agreed with Graion Dilach. While this is a RA release thread ORA in general does affect TD and D2K along with other mods. So making a universal change based off from RA which can affect other mods DOES need to be taken into account.

Things such as individual changes such as units in RA is different. Movement commands, and attack commands changes every mod and when this happen it affects all mods.

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anjew
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Post by anjew » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:04 am

Happy wrote: The data from the poll shows neither, the graph shape is a ravine. This is huge alarm bells in my eyes and issues need rectifying immediately for best player satisfaction and maximum player retention that is needed for the growth of the RA community.
Currently half of the players have one or more issues with the release which is very bad. This can be attributed to the targeting changes but there is a near equal support for it with positive views - the targeting change is a huge pivot that I'll discuss at the end of the analysis.
This is a problem but it's not as easy as it looks to fix. But utilitarian approaches of "the greatest good for the greatest number" will only result in flipping the poll numbers and having the same problem. I think engine based changes should be decided by a technocracy as the only way to make decisions. All these polls do is create more division as people want to keep arguing until the cows come home.
Happy wrote:
There are many issues I've seen in game and discussed on the forum here that are not related to the targeting change
Definitely not saying that these bugs, plus the dozens others are fuck all but right now I'm pretty sure ORA is at its lowest point of contributors to PR's. They can decide to spend their time, fixing a game that runs fine with a few exploits or fixing an engine that still has 2 CnC games to adapt to. You can see on the github that some of these bugs have fallen off to-do list. Arguably ORA players would have a lot more dedication to fix these minor issues than the devs, so maybe they should be left for the players to fix (unless game breaking like the spam).
Happy wrote:
Keep in mind however the poll was directed at the RA mod only.
I'd argue that most TD players didn't vote. They hardly visit the forums. And the ones who do, play RA as well.
Happy wrote:
the competitive scene is vital to the growth of the community of RA and its player retention.
You're right, the competitive scene is a big part of retention to some players. But the thing is, that competitive scene can turn off the players that want casual fun and ironically turn most away when it turns toxic and stat based.
Also, playing competitive is technically still just a fun little hobby. Like racing your mate to finish painting figurines. Some would consider it just a pissing contest. It also is an ever changing thing, you really shouldnt over value your (or my) competitive scene. There was a 'competitive' scene long before the current one (nukem times) and if the current one breaks, another will follow it.
Happy wrote: A lot of important dialogue and issues is not brought to the developers eyes by players because they literally don't know how to find the communication channels. Hence why a lot of people share their problems on the Discord only to be rebuffed with "talk on the IRC", what IRC, where?? Even Catgirls didn't know about IRC or the forum and spent 2 days spamming up the discord.
You're say it's better he was spamming up the IRC and the forum? :p
Just messing around, I agree with you that these channels aren't advertised correctly, I've been waving my hands about it for awhile.
Discord has a properly set up "Useful Links" area, you should maybe direct new people to look at that page. But I know that people wouldn't look there straight away, they just want to fix their issue.
Happy wrote: Special attention and support should now be given to Smitty to mold and balance RA
I second this, if players want to increase their satisfaction with the game, they should get in there and support Smitty (or the ORA team in general) to help fix what is seen as issues.
Happy wrote: Yes I know there's an IRC but I am 17 ,dumb and don't want to piss about with an IRC client and software older than me to help and befriend people.
The irony is killing me right now.
You should do what you did with OpenRA and just download a modern client to run the software
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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:04 pm

anjew wrote:
Happy wrote: Yes I know there's an IRC but I am 17 ,dumb and don't want to piss about with an IRC client and software older than me to help and befriend people.
The irony is killing me right now.
You should do what you did with OpenRA and just download a modern client to run the software
You got me with that one, touche!

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