Omnom's Experimental Balance Changes
Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:57 am
Before you comment on anything, please try to take some time to play a few games with these changes.
The nature of these changes causes a shitstorm of theorycrafting to occur, and as such, it's more helpful to me if we all have some common ground to talk about.
These are experimental changes that I am doing separately from everyone else's balance changes. I've made changes on a limited 1v1 map pool to test the validity of these changes. Yes, my changes tend to be rather dramatic, and everyone I know of is very conservative with what they want changed to this game. If SoS is trying to fix the problems in this game with a tweezer, I'm going to try to fix it with a hammer. Tackling problems from multiple angles with multiple tools will lead us to the correct solution quicker.
My general philosophy behind balancing is that the players should not be restricted to one option to counter one strategy. I can list the number of viable beginning build orders on one hand, I can list the most common army compositions on 3 fingers, and I can show you hundreds of replays that look exactly the same. It's no surprise that the best way to deal with artillery/hind is to get artillery/hind yourself, or that the best way to deal with basepushing is to counter-basepush -- in my honest opinion, there are simply not enough viable options for player to choose from.
The motivation behind the Ground/Air changes is to create more options for players to use against infantry, static defenses, and MCVs. The goal of this experiment is 1) to root out any new problems that arises from these changes, and 2) to see which changes are worth considering for future playtests. I don't expect immediate results from these changes because of how good people are at basepushing and using tank/infantry blobs; these changes are adding an additional element to the preexisting game and it will take some time getting used to them.
The motivation behind the Navy changes is to make them more worthwhile to get in a 1v1 situation. Clearly, there are a lot of problems that comes with my changes, but if Blackened is taking the bottom-up approach, I'll take the top-down approach and we can meet in the middle.
The maps can be found attached to this OP or on the resource site.
__________________________________________________________
Navy changes
-Ship queue scaling changed from normal to 150/100/75/50.
-Shipyard and Sub Pen armor changed to wood. RevealsShroud and DetectCloaked
range increased to 10c0.
-Attack Subs Dmg to Buildings decreased from 270 to 216. Attack Subs armor changed to Heavy.
-Missile Subs price increased from $2000 to $2400
-Shipyard HP increased from 1000 to 1400
-Transports can now carry 20 in weight. Infantry = 1, Vehicles = 5, Heavy tank = 6, Mammoth tank = 10, MAD Tank = 15, and MCV = 20. Speed decrease by 50% when loaded.
-Gunboat costs $800 (+$300). RevealsShroud Increased to 12c0 from 7c0. DetectCloaked decreased from 4c0 to 2c0. Damage increased to 30, 100% against light.
-Destroyers speed decreased to 71 (Attack Sub speed). DetectCloaked range increased from 4c0 to 8c0.
-Attack Subs now only cloak on deploy. When surfaced, speed is 71 and RevealsShroud is 10c0. When submerged, speed is 42 (60% of max speed) and RevealsShroud is 4c0. Attack sub does not surface on attack. Submarine will surface on any damage recieved.
-Missile subs and Cruisers can no longer use attack move. Must use force fire instead. Stance locked to ReturnFire.
-Missile sub attack range increased to 32c0 from 16c0 with a min range of 5c0. Damage increased from 25dmg, 40N/100W/30L/30H, 1000/368/135/50/18/7/0 falloff to 150 dmg, 40N/75W/100L/100H, 100/50/30/20/6/5/0 falloff. Inaccuracy reduced from 3c0 to 0c306. AttackFrontal changed to AttackOmni. Will not automatically track target; force fire must already be within range. Removed AA for lint purposes.
-Cruiser attack range increased to 24c0 from 16c0 with a min range of 2c0. Damage increased from 25dmg, 60N/75W/60L/25H, with 1000/368/135/50/18/7/0 falloff to 100dmg, 60N/50W/100L/50H, with 100/50/30/20/6/5/0 falloff. Will track target
__________________________________________________
Ground/Air Changes
-Added an Expansion Refinery to the Defense Tab. Does not come with a free harvester and cannot store resources. Costs $600 and has 450hp.
-Radar Jammer moved to T2 for England
-British Spy cost from $350 -> $500
-MGG now reduces vision of all infantry to 2c50, vehicles to 4c0, and buildings to 2c0
-MGG, Chronotank, and Tesla Tank moved down to T2 for their respective factions
-Ukraine Radar Dome grants an extra Spy plane and Paratrooper
-Spyplane Charge reduced to 2m from 3m.
-Harvester HP reduced to 450 from 600 and cost decreased to $850 from $1150
-War Factory cost decreased from $2000 -> $1650
-MCV cost increased from $2000 -> $2500
-Pillbox fire changed to 4 28tick bursts with a 56 tick reload delay (4 shots/168 ticks versus 5 shots/150 ticks)
-Flame turret burst delay increased from 20 to 35 ticks, reload delay of 70 ticks added. SpreadDamage increased from 213 to 256
-Pillboxes and Flame turrets cost 40 energy.
-Heavy Tank damage dealt to heavy increased by 20%*2. Medium Tank damage increased by 20%
-Mammoth Tank damage dealt to heavy/wood/light increased to 150/100/100 from 100/75/75
-MiGs can now attack air. Missiles do 5 extra damage to kill a harvester in 3 strafes
-Service Depot can now rearm aircraft
-Tanks and husks can block projectiles.
_________________________________________
Some comments on some specific, major changes:
-Tanks and husks with BlocksProjectiles
In combination with the damage boost for Tank Damage to heavy units, this adds an extra dimension to the friendly fire aspect of the game. My hopes for this change is to have people use their tanks in different ways, other than just moving them through an infantry blob. By giving them BlocksProjectiles, they can be used as moving concrete walls to block static defenses or as protection for your flanks; the trade off is that A-moving tanks will most likely result in some friendly fire. Currently, it's kind of buggy if the tank is moving forward and the tank shoots forward, but overall, the changes work as intended.
Preliminary results: Tanks are more difficult to use, but it is not game breaking due to how immobile and difficult it is to maneuver theme effectively. There is a certain amount of skill needed to use them effectively.
-Moving half of the current T3 to T2 / adding new T2 for Ukraine and England.
The current balance scheme when T2 is out on the field is primarily predicated on vision, artillery, and the scaling of static defenses. In combination with the "T1" balance scheme between MCVs, Tanks, Infantry, and static defenses, the T2 additions tend to turn game into a waiting game of sorts, where each player is looking for / trying to create a hole. This is a process that can take anywhere from 10 seconds to 10 minutes.
During this time, the scaling (aka spamming) of static defenses and artillery units can go out of control; I'm sure i'm not the only player who has had frustrations dealing with 15 pillboxes or microing tanks/aircraft through balls of rocket soldiers to snipe V2/artillery. The idea behind moving some T3 units to T2 is to introduce another, earlier option to control the scaling of artillery and static defenses, before the scaling gets out of control. Of course, some options are going to be better than others (Early Tesla Tanks are great, while MGGs are just really annoying now), and some might make the problem worse, but the whole idea is to experiment and see what works and what does not.
So far, the games with these changes have definitely been more interesting and strategical; players have units and tools to scout and to harass with. Artillery units and V2s are much more vulnerable and easier to deal with, especially if one is playing as Russia or Germany. Unfortunately, no one has yet come up with a way to control the MCV with these extra tools. The best I could do was to use the extra vision from Ukraine to punish my opponent when he was spamming pillboxes in one location.
Additional preliminary results: Ukraine could have a special version of the MAD tank as a T2 unit? Worth looking into. The extra Spy plane/Paratroopers is kind of lame, and having 2 spy planes is OP in some cases. The Tesla Tank is borderline OP, but the other units are rather fun to use. Chronotank could be OP, but its much weaker than the Tesla Tank due to its inability to kite infantry units. They're very difficult to kill though, which may present a problem.
-Expansion Refinery in the Defense Tab
The only way people have ever contemplated addressing the pillbox spam was by making it more costly (money, power, time, etc) to use. The sole purpose of the Defense tab is to make pillboxes -- one way to fix this is to allow people to build other things in the defense tab. The idea with this expansion refinery is to allow players the ability to quickly secure their economy with the risk of getting caught by early vehicles/armies. My hopes for this change is that it will create a different way to play the game that will provide more options for the players.
Yes, no matter what buildings I add to the defense tab, people will eventually have nothing else to build except for pillboxes. However, my goal with adding something else in the defense tab is to delay the scaling of pillboxes to a point where players will actually have the tools to deal with massed static defenses. Again, the whole motivation behind this experiment is to give players more options, not to fine-tune the current balance. I leave that aspect of balancing to SoS.
Preliminary results: It's pretty hard to use these effectively versus constant pressure builds, but it's almost too effective in "sit back and mass units" situations. Regardless, this change has sped up several games by at least 2-3 minutes worth of refinery spamming -- in those games, there were not very many static defenses at all.
Other side effects: with all the units being insanely strong and viable, it's now very difficult to end the game normally....see my game vs Han for one example.
The nature of these changes causes a shitstorm of theorycrafting to occur, and as such, it's more helpful to me if we all have some common ground to talk about.
These are experimental changes that I am doing separately from everyone else's balance changes. I've made changes on a limited 1v1 map pool to test the validity of these changes. Yes, my changes tend to be rather dramatic, and everyone I know of is very conservative with what they want changed to this game. If SoS is trying to fix the problems in this game with a tweezer, I'm going to try to fix it with a hammer. Tackling problems from multiple angles with multiple tools will lead us to the correct solution quicker.
My general philosophy behind balancing is that the players should not be restricted to one option to counter one strategy. I can list the number of viable beginning build orders on one hand, I can list the most common army compositions on 3 fingers, and I can show you hundreds of replays that look exactly the same. It's no surprise that the best way to deal with artillery/hind is to get artillery/hind yourself, or that the best way to deal with basepushing is to counter-basepush -- in my honest opinion, there are simply not enough viable options for player to choose from.
The motivation behind the Ground/Air changes is to create more options for players to use against infantry, static defenses, and MCVs. The goal of this experiment is 1) to root out any new problems that arises from these changes, and 2) to see which changes are worth considering for future playtests. I don't expect immediate results from these changes because of how good people are at basepushing and using tank/infantry blobs; these changes are adding an additional element to the preexisting game and it will take some time getting used to them.
The motivation behind the Navy changes is to make them more worthwhile to get in a 1v1 situation. Clearly, there are a lot of problems that comes with my changes, but if Blackened is taking the bottom-up approach, I'll take the top-down approach and we can meet in the middle.
The maps can be found attached to this OP or on the resource site.
__________________________________________________________
Navy changes
-Ship queue scaling changed from normal to 150/100/75/50.
-Shipyard and Sub Pen armor changed to wood. RevealsShroud and DetectCloaked
range increased to 10c0.
-Attack Subs Dmg to Buildings decreased from 270 to 216. Attack Subs armor changed to Heavy.
-Missile Subs price increased from $2000 to $2400
-Shipyard HP increased from 1000 to 1400
-Transports can now carry 20 in weight. Infantry = 1, Vehicles = 5, Heavy tank = 6, Mammoth tank = 10, MAD Tank = 15, and MCV = 20. Speed decrease by 50% when loaded.
-Gunboat costs $800 (+$300). RevealsShroud Increased to 12c0 from 7c0. DetectCloaked decreased from 4c0 to 2c0. Damage increased to 30, 100% against light.
-Destroyers speed decreased to 71 (Attack Sub speed). DetectCloaked range increased from 4c0 to 8c0.
-Attack Subs now only cloak on deploy. When surfaced, speed is 71 and RevealsShroud is 10c0. When submerged, speed is 42 (60% of max speed) and RevealsShroud is 4c0. Attack sub does not surface on attack. Submarine will surface on any damage recieved.
-Missile subs and Cruisers can no longer use attack move. Must use force fire instead. Stance locked to ReturnFire.
-Missile sub attack range increased to 32c0 from 16c0 with a min range of 5c0. Damage increased from 25dmg, 40N/100W/30L/30H, 1000/368/135/50/18/7/0 falloff to 150 dmg, 40N/75W/100L/100H, 100/50/30/20/6/5/0 falloff. Inaccuracy reduced from 3c0 to 0c306. AttackFrontal changed to AttackOmni. Will not automatically track target; force fire must already be within range. Removed AA for lint purposes.
-Cruiser attack range increased to 24c0 from 16c0 with a min range of 2c0. Damage increased from 25dmg, 60N/75W/60L/25H, with 1000/368/135/50/18/7/0 falloff to 100dmg, 60N/50W/100L/50H, with 100/50/30/20/6/5/0 falloff. Will track target
__________________________________________________
Ground/Air Changes
-Added an Expansion Refinery to the Defense Tab. Does not come with a free harvester and cannot store resources. Costs $600 and has 450hp.
-Radar Jammer moved to T2 for England
-British Spy cost from $350 -> $500
-MGG now reduces vision of all infantry to 2c50, vehicles to 4c0, and buildings to 2c0
-MGG, Chronotank, and Tesla Tank moved down to T2 for their respective factions
-Ukraine Radar Dome grants an extra Spy plane and Paratrooper
-Spyplane Charge reduced to 2m from 3m.
-Harvester HP reduced to 450 from 600 and cost decreased to $850 from $1150
-War Factory cost decreased from $2000 -> $1650
-MCV cost increased from $2000 -> $2500
-Pillbox fire changed to 4 28tick bursts with a 56 tick reload delay (4 shots/168 ticks versus 5 shots/150 ticks)
-Flame turret burst delay increased from 20 to 35 ticks, reload delay of 70 ticks added. SpreadDamage increased from 213 to 256
-Pillboxes and Flame turrets cost 40 energy.
-Heavy Tank damage dealt to heavy increased by 20%*2. Medium Tank damage increased by 20%
-Mammoth Tank damage dealt to heavy/wood/light increased to 150/100/100 from 100/75/75
-MiGs can now attack air. Missiles do 5 extra damage to kill a harvester in 3 strafes
-Service Depot can now rearm aircraft
-Tanks and husks can block projectiles.
_________________________________________
Some comments on some specific, major changes:
-Tanks and husks with BlocksProjectiles
In combination with the damage boost for Tank Damage to heavy units, this adds an extra dimension to the friendly fire aspect of the game. My hopes for this change is to have people use their tanks in different ways, other than just moving them through an infantry blob. By giving them BlocksProjectiles, they can be used as moving concrete walls to block static defenses or as protection for your flanks; the trade off is that A-moving tanks will most likely result in some friendly fire. Currently, it's kind of buggy if the tank is moving forward and the tank shoots forward, but overall, the changes work as intended.
Preliminary results: Tanks are more difficult to use, but it is not game breaking due to how immobile and difficult it is to maneuver theme effectively. There is a certain amount of skill needed to use them effectively.
-Moving half of the current T3 to T2 / adding new T2 for Ukraine and England.
The current balance scheme when T2 is out on the field is primarily predicated on vision, artillery, and the scaling of static defenses. In combination with the "T1" balance scheme between MCVs, Tanks, Infantry, and static defenses, the T2 additions tend to turn game into a waiting game of sorts, where each player is looking for / trying to create a hole. This is a process that can take anywhere from 10 seconds to 10 minutes.
During this time, the scaling (aka spamming) of static defenses and artillery units can go out of control; I'm sure i'm not the only player who has had frustrations dealing with 15 pillboxes or microing tanks/aircraft through balls of rocket soldiers to snipe V2/artillery. The idea behind moving some T3 units to T2 is to introduce another, earlier option to control the scaling of artillery and static defenses, before the scaling gets out of control. Of course, some options are going to be better than others (Early Tesla Tanks are great, while MGGs are just really annoying now), and some might make the problem worse, but the whole idea is to experiment and see what works and what does not.
So far, the games with these changes have definitely been more interesting and strategical; players have units and tools to scout and to harass with. Artillery units and V2s are much more vulnerable and easier to deal with, especially if one is playing as Russia or Germany. Unfortunately, no one has yet come up with a way to control the MCV with these extra tools. The best I could do was to use the extra vision from Ukraine to punish my opponent when he was spamming pillboxes in one location.
Additional preliminary results: Ukraine could have a special version of the MAD tank as a T2 unit? Worth looking into. The extra Spy plane/Paratroopers is kind of lame, and having 2 spy planes is OP in some cases. The Tesla Tank is borderline OP, but the other units are rather fun to use. Chronotank could be OP, but its much weaker than the Tesla Tank due to its inability to kite infantry units. They're very difficult to kill though, which may present a problem.
-Expansion Refinery in the Defense Tab
The only way people have ever contemplated addressing the pillbox spam was by making it more costly (money, power, time, etc) to use. The sole purpose of the Defense tab is to make pillboxes -- one way to fix this is to allow people to build other things in the defense tab. The idea with this expansion refinery is to allow players the ability to quickly secure their economy with the risk of getting caught by early vehicles/armies. My hopes for this change is that it will create a different way to play the game that will provide more options for the players.
Yes, no matter what buildings I add to the defense tab, people will eventually have nothing else to build except for pillboxes. However, my goal with adding something else in the defense tab is to delay the scaling of pillboxes to a point where players will actually have the tools to deal with massed static defenses. Again, the whole motivation behind this experiment is to give players more options, not to fine-tune the current balance. I leave that aspect of balancing to SoS.
Preliminary results: It's pretty hard to use these effectively versus constant pressure builds, but it's almost too effective in "sit back and mass units" situations. Regardless, this change has sped up several games by at least 2-3 minutes worth of refinery spamming -- in those games, there were not very many static defenses at all.
Other side effects: with all the units being insanely strong and viable, it's now very difficult to end the game normally....see my game vs Han for one example.