Removing kill bounties from RA

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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anjew
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Post by anjew » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:48 pm

OMnom wrote: You can't sit back and shell them because it takes longer to kill 1 pillbox than it is to build another one, even with the PB build time nerf. Overall, this takes too much time, and is pretty ineffective.
Actually its quite effective if they are wasting money. You just need to be patient.
What I was trying to say is that these things have counters, you can win games without the need for bounties.
OMnom wrote: You can't exactly use skill because all the "skillful" units like Longbows, V2s, etc require more money >.>
Everyone unit requires the use of skill. Putting tanks at the front of an army to tank pillbox or riflemen is considered skill, using a ranger or a dog for their vision so your rifles get the advantage is skill. If you use skill and ensure that your engagements are good and that you are effectively countering the enemy and retreat at the right times, you will end up with more money and more units. You don't need the introduction a new income source that allows players to snowball, this snowballing is unfair and uncompetitive.

At the end of the day, I value fairness over fun.
Last edited by anjew on Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:16 pm

Moral of the story, we'll test this out after RAGL is done. Along with the timer on fake buildings, and the other balance suggestions.

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Orb
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Post by Orb » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:41 pm

I playtested the bounty removal a bit with Barf. Not really a representative game, but it made a few things obvious to me.

Most importantly, the biggest game play change from removing bounty is not that one player gets more money, its that neither do. Bounties give you extra money to work with after a major battle to rebuild. It also keeps the gears of the game going, if that makes any sense. Things are less likely to stall out.

So, if bounty is removed because it is "unfair", it will also have unintended side effects on how the game works. There will be less money available in general.

Lets go through an example. Let's say there's 40k losses on each side. Usually at this stage of the game assets are around 8-12k per person. If you remove 4k from each player's economy, then they'll only have 4-8k assets, which gives them less toys to work with. Of course, this is a gross simplification (they don't get 4k at the very end, but spread out), but you get the idea.

OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:07 pm

Orb wrote: I playtested the bounty removal a bit with Barf. Not really a representative game, but it made a few things obvious to me.

Most importantly, the biggest game play change from removing bounty is not that one player gets more money, its that neither do. Bounties give you extra money to work with after a major battle to rebuild. It also keeps the gears of the game going, if that makes any sense. Things are less likely to stall out.

So, if bounty is removed because it is "unfair", it will also have unintended side effects on how the game works. There will be less money available in general.

Lets go through an example. Let's say there's 40k losses on each side. Usually at this stage of the game assets are around 8-12k per person. If you remove 4k from each player's economy, then they'll only have 4-8k assets, which gives them less toys to work with. Of course, this is a gross simplification (they don't get 4k at the very end, but spread out), but you get the idea.
Can we relocate this income to something else? Allow players to build oil derricks, or maybe increase the bale unload from each harvester?

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:12 pm

My thoughts, I think this entire discussion is stupid that bounties make absolute zero difference they're just a side addition the effects you're bigging it up to be making is so small. Anjew you said lorry made 10k off you but you made 8.7k thats lorry gaining 1.3 k on you that is 13 rifles it is so small it makes no difference and in the current macro meta eco is number one priority its just another small digit on top of the float, you cant make those 13 riflemen any faster your just gonna run out of money 10 seconds later. We're talking here as if it's game breaking with bounties but in reality its slight more eco to afford like 12 riflemen like what is the problem? :?

OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:32 pm

I think Orb and Barf showed that removing bounties definitely makes difference, over the span of the entire game. I'm not sure how much money players make from an average game, but it was enough for Orb to notice that there was some money missing from his pockets. As much as I'd like to see the bounty system go, I don't like the idea of removing the bounty system without a suitable replacement for the missing income.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:46 pm

There was full knowledge that there would be no bounties making it like 6x as noticeable. If we made maps that had no bounty without anyway to the player knowing I doubt anyone would find out. I played TD a little and I never noticed the lack of kill bounty cause I forgot it existed

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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:04 pm

Getting rid of bounty and just letting the metagame adjust would be totally fine.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
-Sun Tzu

lucassss
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Post by lucassss » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:35 pm

Just want to say that in low ore map or when I lost all refineries and don't have enough money, bounty becomes suddently very significant.

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:52 pm

lucassss wrote: Just want to say that in low ore map or when I lost all refineries and don't have enough money, bounty becomes suddently very significant.
additionally without bounty most maps would need an adjustment in ore patch size/oremines. Probably a plus 2-3 ore mines would make up for it.

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ZxGanon
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Post by ZxGanon » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:21 am

Pchote is also against bounty kills and would like to remove it. He regrets having added that since several years.

I totally share the same opinion Anjew has. In the end I also favor fairness over fun. Even though Kill Bountys keep the gears rolling doesnt mean it is necessary for the game to be fun, intuitive and competitive.

If there is truly a lack in money it can be compensated (there are enough options).

I have seen so many games today (also played) on Kyrylos new added test maps and it feels very good. I feel like I finally can attack and harrass without being absolutley behind by even trying to sacrifce units for doing damage.

Also games tend to last longer because a player that is ahead is not automatically winning.
There were some people saying that bounty kills is a comback mechanic but what I have seen so far is that it actually prevents you from comming back it even stalls out the game since you cannot enage with your army without being in fear of losing some units and donating money.

Also I enjoy seeing the games "taking longer" that causes currently A-Bombs and more superweapons like Iron Curtain to reappear all of a sudden.

Also as a reminder removing Bounty Kills does not necessarly mean the end or Ra1. Its not like removing an entire unit out of the arsenal from one faction (which clearly represents a disadvantage for that faction) because removing bountys applies for all players in openra Red Alert 1.

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WhoCares
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Post by WhoCares » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:08 am

I personally like the bounty not for the bounty itself but it indicates me how much infantry die at the same time with crushes, V2 or arties thx to all the colored numbers.

Totally not an argument in favor, just the way i notice more the bounties :)

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:13 am

WhoCares wrote: I personally like the bounty not for the bounty itself but it indicates me how much infantry die at the same time with crushes, V2 or arties thx to all the colored numbers.

Totally not an argument in favor, just the way i notice more the bounties :)
Same its satisfying :D

OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:22 am

Bounties could be a checkbox option, along with engineers being able to capture friendly buildings?

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ZxGanon
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Post by ZxGanon » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:02 am

Instead of money it could be shown as XP points like in SC2. There is an option to see how much XP you gain from killing certain units for your user faction level.

So if thats missing I guess that can be implemented with ease.

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