Removing kill bounties from RA

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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ZxGanon
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Removing kill bounties from RA

Post by ZxGanon » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:24 pm

anjew wrote:
ZxGanon wrote: I got the slight feeling that ora devs seem to have no idea what RTS games are on about.
since most balance changes arent done by devs, they just make the game, id say that the state of the game can be blamed on the players (if you really want to blame someone)
Thank you sir may I take my opportunity to do so.

To not overdue it too much the only thing I absolutly hate in Ra1 is kill bounty.
The rest can be redone however they want.

It is an absolut abomination to have kill bounty in an RTS game.

It promotes the defenders advantage on a new level were attacking and harrassing becomes no option since you donate money to your opponent. Might explain the huge blobb fights and basecrawling strategies that take place in this game... no need to be a genius to see that coming.

Also it is highly unstable how income can flow between both players (if we are talking about 1v1 since everything else above 1v1 is not worth discussing anyway).

There are more points to describe how bad it is to have such a mechanic but I already talked with the majority of the Ra1 community and as I have heard it is nearly impossible to remove that since lobbyism is quite strong.

barf_openra
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Post by barf_openra » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:48 pm

If someone wanted to create some modded maps with the kill bounty removed, i would be happy to help playtest them to see what effect it had on the game.

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ZxGanon
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Post by ZxGanon » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:49 pm

barf_openra wrote: If someone wanted to create some modded maps with the kill bounty removed, i would be happy to help playtest them to see what effect it had on the game.
Kyrylo currently does. He is setting up this change + some minor balance tweaks.

Nobody needs to get liking to them but maybe the Kill Bounty removal shall be the main point of attention.

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Smitty
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Post by Smitty » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:12 pm

I actually like the bounty system. Tried to play TD the other day and I was all: 'WHERE ARE MY NUMBERS?!!'

I would however like to see all units worth the same 10% regardless of veterancy. I don't like the idea of punishing someone for getting veterancy on a unit.
"Do not trust the balance tzars (Smitty, Orb). They are making the changes either for the wrong reasons, for no reason at all, or just because they can and it makes them feel good." - Alex Jones

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:28 pm

While kill bountys can be an issue if someone is turtling hard but players should be rewarded for winning an engagement in such a dominitive style. Aggressive play is plentyfull in this game, Gatekeeper is the best example of constant aggression which ive been trying to adopt into my style.

basecrawling and basepushing is because its more efficent to use structures as a tank than actual tanks, removes the time of units traveling to the battlefield and also it removes defenders advantage, not because theres a kill bounty. Also big blobs occur because inf are the main damage dealers of Red Alert so its not rocket science to need as much inf as possible.

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anjew
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Post by anjew » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:41 pm

Happy wrote: players should be rewarded for winning an engagement in such a dominitive style
Here is my thoughts, for whatever its worth.

The reward for winning an engagement is taking the upper hand in the match. giving someone money on top of a won engagement is uncompetitive in nature and creates a fundamental imbalance where a player is rewarded for doing a good job while another player is punished not only by losing units but by giving the enemy 10% of his losses in money to the very person who killed them.

Its like the blueshell in Mario Kart that would hit the player who was coming first. Its uncompetitive but fun
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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:47 pm

While it can be percieved that way. I never have once thought oh I lost this engagement ive given my oppenant money. Its rarely ever affects anything its just a very small side bonus. The only time its actually mattered is when your throwing waves at people and wondering how they have eco after 10 mins of attack. And that money is well deserved for repelling constant attacks pushing you in a corner. Also good players prioritise eco so the extra money goes to the float and the kill bountys so small killing a mig gives you money for 2 rifles.

OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:32 pm

The bounty probably has no effect whatsoever on team games and with inexperienced players. However, I do agree that it probably has some effect on 1v1s, but not to the extent that ZxGanon is talking about. It's possible that the money my opponent receives from bounties has something to do with them being able to constantly out macro me, but I think it's only fair since I'm pretty reckless with my stuff.

Regardless, I do think that the bounty system should go, but I have more qualms about the veterancy system, if we're still trying to keep the balance changes mild. It's nice to reward people for keeping a certain unit alive, but general pillboxes, vetted rocket blobs, and vet'd Tanya are broken as shit. I think they should completely get rid of the attack speed + attack damage buffs from all veterancy levels.

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:51 pm

doesn't bounties make defense structures even more powerful? Especially turrets/teslas.

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Orb
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Post by Orb » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:04 pm

Personally I like the bounty system. It looks nice and it helps in two situations. One, if you're behind but have good micro, you can claw yourself back a little. Two, if you're way ahead, it helps you snowball and end the game. I think the 2nd is important because defenses are powerful and it's easy to stalemate in this game, which isn't fun.

I agree vetting should be removed from pillboxes. A pillbox that gets some kills fires 40% faster.

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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:07 pm

Orb wrote: snowball
snowball
snowball
snowball


I think bounty mechanic mostly benefits the player who is already ahead.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
-Sun Tzu

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anjew
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Post by anjew » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:10 pm

Happy wrote: kill bountys so small killing a mig gives you money for 2 rifles.
The thing is it adds up. For example, at the end of my Lorrydriver RAGL match Lorry had earned roughly 10k off me (not sure if buildings count to bounties or not). im not complaining though, i made 8.7k. Bounties just add unfair element that ruins the competitive nature, in my opinion
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OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:10 pm

Doomsday wrote:
Orb wrote: snowball
snowball
snowball
snowball


I think bounty mechanic mostly benefits the player who is already ahead.
anjew wrote:
Happy wrote: kill bountys so small killing a mig gives you money for 2 rifles.
The thing is it adds up. For example, at the end of my Lorrydriver RAGL match Lorry had earned roughly 10k off me (not sure if buildings count to bounties or not). im not complaining though, i made 8.7k. Bounties just add unfair element that ruins the competitive nature, in my opinion

Orb brings up a good point though. How are you going to bust through a line of pillboxes with no money? I agree it ends up being unfair to a certain extent, but generally, it just gives both players a roughly equal sum of money, depending on how good their micro is. In that game, you might be able to say that Lorry outmicro'd you (har har har), or that you were too reckless with your army. But yeah, having monetary rewards for an intangible skill is something that isn't balanced at all. I'd be cool if everything just gave you a flat $10 rather than 10% of its current price.

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anjew
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Post by anjew » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:22 pm

OMnom wrote: I agree it ends up being unfair to a certain extent, but I'm with Orb in the sense that you sort of need this money to bust through static defenses.
What you are essentially saying is that there is no counter to defences other than being given free money?

Why cant you out expand and out produce? Why can't you sit back and shell them? Why cant you use skill rather being given an unfair advantage?

If, as you say, this game hinges on bounties then that is exactly why it needs to be removed.
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OMnom
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Post by OMnom » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:34 pm

anjew wrote:
OMnom wrote: I agree it ends up being unfair to a certain extent, but I'm with Orb in the sense that you sort of need this money to bust through static defenses.
What you are essentially saying is that there is no counter to defences other than being given free money?
Well...pretty much. In this context, the bounties would probably favor the defenses rather than the attacking forces. But the extra bounties from previous battles would allow a little bit of extra money to compensate for this. Overall though, I'm not sure how we can agree to tackle this problem -- do we focus on only bounties, only defenses, or both?
Why cant you out expand and out produce? Why can't you sit back and shell them? Why cant you use skill rather being given an unfair advantage?
The game is hinged on out-expanding and out-producing, and this is currently the preferred method of busting through defences. However, to defend these expansions, you need to produce more static defenses, so out-ecoing is both the problem and the solution, which is kind of weird.

You can't sit back and shell them because it takes longer to kill 1 pillbox than it is to build another one, even with the PB build time nerf. Overall, this takes too much time, and is pretty ineffective.

You can't exactly use skill by itself because all the "skillful" units like Longbows, V2s, etc require more money. Time is also an issue here.

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