Dune units usability and some opinion.

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Kwendy
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Dune units usability and some opinion.

Post by Kwendy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:53 pm

Infantry. A bit more sturdy then in other mods, to an extent. Can be crushed. Only infantry can see stealth units. Base defences can't deal with infantry. Infantry can traverse rocky terrain and bridges. Has least trouble with pathfinding.
Image - Light Infantry (cost 50) - basic unit of the game. Used to create pressure on the map. My personal unit of choice. Can be used to punish lack of enemy scouting and no barracks build (i.e. trike rush of one of the base entrances left unguarded).
Light infantry rush countered by light infantry counterspam (mind your barracks! either build backup or place safe on concrete) as reinforcement would stretch for enemy. Harvster crushes are also efficient (in combination with defencive infantry), also you might loose your precious mining time or even harvester itself if you are not cautious.
Image - Trooper (cost 90) - anti-vehicle unit. Requires barracks upgrade. Main use is to not let your infantry get crushed by tanks. Also dispatches light vehicles (aka trikes) faster. Due to lower movement speed they can fall behind main forces thus being unable to perform their duties (punish crushes) in time when travel long distances.
Image - Engineer - repair/capture unit. Requires barracks upgrade. Rarely sees the light of day on most maps as he has mo means to infiltrate the base of most players unnoticed and people don't usually station couple of engis for emergency repair. Even if they did, the enemy would've sniped engineer before taking the building. Some maps designed to have capturable expantions, thus increasing value of engineers in about the same way as Red Alert 2 with tech structures.
Image - Thumper - special unit. Requires barracks upgrade. Noone knows how it works, but if you place couple of thumpers here and there, worm will harmlessly travel between them. I would'nt have moved my vehicles and harvesters close to them though. *I think thumpers create priority target for worm, so with two thumpers can theoretically create a loop to trap the worm, more testing required*
Image - Grenadier (Cost 80) - advanced infantry of Atreidis house. Requires high-tec facility, outpost and barracks upgrade. Has insane attack radius and great anti-infantry damage. Can replace basic infantry on battlefield. Bad against moving targets, bad against combat tanks, explode with beautiful effect, do not cause chain reaction.
Image - Sardaukar (cost 200) - elite anti-everything Harkonnen (well, technically - Emperors, but dispatched by Harkonnen army) troops. As of playtest build requires high-tec facility, outpost and barracks upgrade. They are very expencive for their worth, and thus can only be used with huge eco line to support them. Fun fact: they are weaker then two 50$ light infantrymen and do less damage to vehicles then 90$ troopers.
Image - Fremen (summoned unit) - elite Atreidis (i.e. Arrakis) units that are too small in numbers to use against infantry (also they lose to Sardaukars 1 on 1) or vehicles, but they have one of the best anti-building damage. They can quickly dispatch every building that is not placed on concrete or snipe essential target of unattentive player. They are stealthed until they shoot and quick to regain camoflage. To successfully infiltrate enemy base you need to scout enemy infantry placement first. If enemy is lax enough to leave base without infantry (or all defencsive infantry was drawn away to hold your assault) consider sniping the barracks. You can escape any vehicle by cloaking yourself to find next building to demolish.
Image - Saboteur (summoned unit) - elite Ordos unit. Basically suicide bomber. Can one-shot any vehicle or building. Only stealthed when not moving, so building snipe is highly unlikely (and you can do basically the same with purchasable engineer). Can camp spice fields to snipe harvesters, but with the number of saboteurs it would be one harvester per two or three minutes. More of a light annoyance for palace worth. Shares same bug as hijacker when entering vehicles.
Light vehicles. Fragile. Fast. Have separate building que. Used for fast attacks, not recommended for extended clashes. Cannot deal with mass infantry.
ImageImage - Trike (cost 300) - fastest units of the game. Can be used for early harrasment, flanking and scouting. Ordos variations are more expencive, but more efficient dring all game length. Die from everything, cannot kite well because of poor attack radius. Minimum recommended battle group number - 3 units, optimal recommended battle group number - 5 units up to 10 units to not cause pathfinding problems.
Early game trike rushes can be repelled by stationing light infantry in crucial points. Each trike cost equivalent is 6 to 7 infantryman and they (in group) cannot stand even against group of five rifles. Thus placing five or so units near all crucial buildings (refinaries, factories, MCV) can prevent sniping. Note that concrete doubles the amount of HP of building placed on it. Always make backup barracks or place barracks on concrete - othervise it can cost you responce time increase.
Trikes can also camp spice fields, but it takes time to actually destroy a harvester: don't panic and gather retaliation/spice field patrol light infantry groups. Do not try to give chase with all you got, they might want to force your defences out of position for those juicy juicy buildings snipes.
Image - Quad - advanced light vehicle. Requires light vehicle factory upgrade. While a bit slower then trikes, they are a bit mor sturdy and have bigger damage output and range, thus making them great unit for vehicles snipes. They can't fight infantry, so flanking is necessary. Can easily destroy trikes, siege tanks, can swarm harvesters, missile tanks.
Heavy vehicles. Can crush. Note that bullet damage output in this mod is decent enough against all types of targets.
Image - Combat tank (cost 700) - main battle tank. Fast, pretty sturdy, with good damage. My second unit of choice. Used for recon, breakthrough or any other task. Efficiently crushes the infantry, but needs to be cautious of troopers. Don't do well without support.
Image - Siege Tank - anti-infantry heavy vehicle. Requires heavy vehicles factory upgrade. A lot of people's unit of choice. In groups of three and more can efficiently deal with infantry, but preferrably to have infantry support of your own. Can be easily sniped by light vehicles of combat tanks. Watch your flank. Perform best with chokes, cliffs and slow sand (where it's more difficult to squish). Compensate weakness of base defences against infantry wich can tip the balance in case of base trades. Deals more gamage against buildings.
Image - Missile Tank - anti-vehicle heavy tank. Requires heavy vehicles factory upgrade and IX-lab. Slow rate of fire, but great range and damage. Also it theoretically great unit, it requires line of sight and micro to target enemy tanks (as frontline usually buffered with infantry and missiles are not good at all against it). Othervise missile tanks can even snipe deviators. Note that Ordoss can only purchase missile tanks from starport.
Image - Sonic Tank - Atreidis special tank. Requires heavy vehicles factory upgrade and IX-lab. Great area of effect damage dealer. Kinda slow. Good against everything. Beware of friendly fire. Problematic to use as you need some support to not let sonic tanks be outnumbered, yet the support suffers from mentioned friendly fire. Possible solution is usage of several battle groups for simultaneous attacks from different directions. Wich useful even without sonic tanks granted you have required forces. Target fire to make most use of line area damage.
Image - Devastator - Harkonnen special tank. Big, badass, most sturdy in the game and painfully slow. Hard to stop yet easy to eavade. Due to being slow when it finally arrives to your base it's battered from numerous battles. Deals area of efect damage.
Image - Deviator - Ordoss special tank. Basically direct counter to two above mentioned special tanks. Temporarly captures enemy vehicle. With very slow rate of fire it's best to micro each shot. Desperately needs direct support as it's very fragile and can't do anything against infantry. Fast and expendable trikes or quads are best way to deal with them. Always scout ahead.
Last edited by Kwendy on Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Kwendy
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Post by Kwendy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:57 pm

As of now, I see small usability problems with missile tanks (line of sight on enemy vehicles is a luxury), saboteurs (if they at least were purchasable they would be so good... Well, except hijackers shared bug) and worms (maybe a 2 minutes delay on spawn? I mean, first harvester is refundedm but still sucks).

Kwendy
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Post by Kwendy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:37 pm

Tested a bit more.
Starport usability is questionable. It's expencive. If you lack space for multiple productions then ok, but othervise... Well, it's thing to chnge so does not matter.
By the way, as I tested Atreidis combat tanks has same DPM, but less HP then Harkonnen's. What's the catch?

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MustaphaTR
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Post by MustaphaTR » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:59 pm

Ordos MBT has low HP high movement, turn and fire speed. Harkonnen MBT has high HP and low speed. Atreides one is in the middle.

Starport in OpenRA works different than original. Original Starport system is not implemented on OpenRA yet. In original you can sometimes get units cheaper or more expensive from starport as costs vary and quicker and multipile (max 6) at a time.

Minotaur
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Post by Minotaur » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:15 am

The trike could also benefit from having faction differences:
Ordos: has an secondary weapon in the form of an tow missile that gives it soft av capability, like upgraded Humvees in Gen:Zh.
Harkonnens: Dune 2k 'Emperor: Battle for Dune' had this Buzzsaw mounted thingy, inspired from that can make it deadly against infantry at melee range. Aslong its front facing is touching an infantry it will suffer continous damage, most infantry will die in a couple slashes from it.
Atreides: as is.
Last edited by Minotaur on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:48 am

Minotaur wrote: Humvees in Gen:Zh.
Do you just want to make games low res versions of Generals? Seems to be the basis of every other opinion you've made on this forum.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:18 pm

Huh, thought Sardukar was a bit stronger. I guess it's because it's an all-purpose unit and look bad-ass. Yeah unfortunately Fremen are pretty underwhelming in massive eco games.

I would love for Thumpers to just leave the device (thumper) and scram - perhaps just turn into regular infantry. Worm comes, eat the thumper and you potentially saved yourself a harvester or expensive vehicle.

Minotaur
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Post by Minotaur » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:02 am

Happy wrote:
Minotaur wrote: Humvees in Gen:Zh.
Do you just want to make games low res versions of Generals? Seems to be the basis of every other opinion you've made on this forum.
No.
I mean this should move forward and improve upon the design to make it worthwhile, as OpenRA is not true to the original anyways.
The best way to improve would be to look at later C&C's (Tiberium wars, Gen:Zh, but absolutely not Toyberium Twilight!) and incorporate the elements that would be clearly an improvement into the classic mod.
I could enlengthen this reply with detailed analysis about what idea i had presented for why and how, however i dont wish to derail this thread too, and more importantly see no point in arguing with an wall, so...

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MustaphaTR
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Post by MustaphaTR » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:06 am

It is too early to talk about D2K balance. We are trying make the game as cloase as original before attempting to balance it for D2K and TS.

Kwendy
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Post by Kwendy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:57 pm

Harkonnen tanks have almost the same speed as atreidis though... Don't nerf! any amount of bonuses won't cut if they won't be able to crush!
SoScared wrote: Huh, thought Sardukar was a bit stronger. I guess it's because it's an all-purpose unit and look bad-ass. Yeah unfortunately Fremen are pretty underwhelming in massive eco games.

I would love for Thumpers to just leave the device (thumper) and scram - perhaps just turn into regular infantry. Worm comes, eat the thumper and you potentially saved yourself a harvester or expensive vehicle.
And sardukars are slower. As slow as engi's and rocket troopers. According to dune wiki they were supposed to be faster then normal infantry.
Freman are... Well, they are basically commando that you can't produce at will. If player is experienced (wich is not that often), they will be spotted by infantry patrols arount the base. And due to their low numbers killed immediately.

Well, that would be closer to canon for thumpers.

About trike proposal: well, if you give raider trikes better animation - that's fine, but actual different damage type would be too devastating. And melee on triles is ridiculous. Rifles just rip trikes to peices.

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MustaphaTR
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Post by MustaphaTR » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:11 pm

Sardaukars in MP are High-tech Factory tier units. I don't think they need to be much powerful. They are counterpart of Grenadier (which also sucks) and Stealth Raider. Also i think unlike fremen they are meant to be armed with heavy armor and weaponary so it is normal that they are slow.

As i said above between Combat Tanks, only ROF, Health, Speed, Body ROT and Turret ROT values differ. ROF, HP and Speed are different for each tank, not sure about ROTs. That's the case in original too. For balancing those values can be adjusted but should be stay like Ordos Quicker, Harkonnen Stronger and Atreides Middle.

For my D2K mod i'm working on different balancing approach on Light Vehicles. But mostly to make each side (which my mod has 7 not 3) more different so i don't think it fits the vanilla. If you are curious i'm adding Rocket/MG of each Trike, Quad and Raider. Each side has 1 MG and 1 Rocket L. Vehicle.
Last edited by MustaphaTR on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:32 pm

Minotaur wrote:
Happy wrote:
Minotaur wrote: Humvees in Gen:Zh.
however i dont wish to derail this thread too,
Huzzah you finally understand :D

Kwendy
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Post by Kwendy » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:32 am

MustaphaTR wrote: Sardaukars in MP are High-tech Factory tier units. I don't think they need to be much powerful. Also i think unlike fremen they are meant to be armed with heavy armor and weaponary so it is normal that they are slow.
Actually, they are supposed to be elite units from hellhole not unlike Arrakis. They are not just heavy armoured guys and they are not even that more sturdy in the game. And transfer from palace tier to high-tech tier actually did not made them even used more often. And also, did wiki lied about them being fast?
MustaphaTR wrote: They are counterpart of Grenadier (which also sucks)
Ok, now I know you don't play Dune2k multiplayer. Grens are OP, man.
MustaphaTR wrote: As i said above between Combat Tanks, only ROF, Health, Speed, Body ROT and Turret ROT values differ. ROF, HP and Speed are different for each tank, not sure about ROTs. That's the case in original too. For balancing those values can be adjusted but should be stay like Ordos Quicker, Harkonnen Stronger and Atreides Middle.
Just confirming. Atreidis tanks are almost the same as Harkonnen, but takes one or two shots less to kill. Does not really bother me as Atreidis have their own strength.

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