Snipers, Spies and the French

[Smitty]

Over the past few months I have been testing modified maps in which the England’s $250 British Spy is replaced by a support power ‘Sniper Drop’ which paradrops two snipers onto the map. The maps also have the Phase Transport and Mobile Gap Generator swapped between England and France. These changes attempt to address the following three issues:

1. No spy should cost $250; or as AMHOL would put it, Spies are OP!

Now this change probably doesn’t go as far as AMHOL would like in regards to the spy; there’s just not a consensus on if or how the spy is broken. But what the players I’ve talked to can agree on is that $250 for a spy is a bit much.

2. Balance across the Allied factions.

I can’t speak for everyone, but for me drawing France as Random is always a bit of a let down. Not because I think I’ll be at a disadvantage, (Allies are great of course), but because I know if we get to the late game I’ll have fewer toys to play with than England or Germany.
Now because of the rework to the Gap and Mobile Gap Generators this may change. I have my doubts as the MGG will still be a giant “Scout and/or lob artillery here†sign, but I may be wrong. Assuming the MGG doesn’t become a must-have item for the late game, I believe France would be better served with the Phase Transport.
By making this change, each Allied faction with have one offensive special unit; Snipers for Britain, Phase Transports for France, and Chrono Tanks for Germany.

3. What to do with snipers?

The sniper was removed in 2015 from gameplay but still exists in the OpenRA mod. Like ants and zombies it can be accessed through the debug menu. Unlike ants and zombies, snipers wouldn’t look completely ridiculous in the official release.
I assume the chief argument against the adding sniper would be that it wasn’t in the original Red Alert, which I really can’t argue against. What I can say in defense of the sniper is that it has already been in OpenRA, and can be viewed as an element like the flak truck. Like the flak truck, the sniper is also a unit from Red Alert 2.
For me, my proposed changes are less about the sniper, and more about what adding the sniper accomplishes in removing the British Spy and balancing the Allied special units.
The sniper should either be brought out of purgatory or be eternally damned. This change opts for the former.

Notes:

- I have two concerns with the sniper. a) Lack of Soviet stealth detection; I doubt Fido is going to win very many fights vs a sniper. b) The ability for Snipers to fire into fog of war with GPS, making them a poor man’s artillery. (GPS is a subject for later. If no one else brings up the need for a nerf I’ll make a thread eventually. Personally I’m for removing the ’unit vision’ as opposed to commander vision so that artillery and Tanya can’t shoot into the fog of war. I’d also look at removing infantry from GPS detection. I digress; way off topic here.)
That said, I don’t think snipers are overpowered, especially dropped only two at a time every five/six minutes.

- I have the Sniper Drop set at five minutes. I’m thinking it’ll be around six if I ever take this to a pr.

- The highest amount of sniper drops I have seen in a competitive game so far is four, yielding eight snipers in a 40 minute game.

- I have had games as both factions where I was able to eliminate the snipers before they could rack up a single kill.

- With their 10 cell range Snipers behave like artillery in an a-move fight. This leaves them vulnerable to air attack in the back lines.

- Keep in mind snipers can be adjusted. Rate of fire, vision, range, ect.; if anything needs to be addressed it can be.

- I assume the faction ‘themes’ would need to be altered. I’d change Britain from Espionage to Concealment. France should be fine staying with Deception; a stealth vehicle is pretty deceiving right?

- The Sniper Drop isn’t my idea. Five Aces uploaded a test map with the drop and several more ambitious changes. http://resource.openra.net/maps/17170/

Final Thoughts:

One of the things I was aiming for was a small change I could test slowly while still enjoying normal games. I’ve played every game as ‘any’ despite the change being untestable if England or France weren’t in the match. If snipers came into play or France got to use a phase transport, then great; if not, no big deal. I’m still enjoying normal games.
The point I’m trying to make is, this change will not be that impactful or intrusive to the state of the game.
There’s one criticism I expect to receive that I would like to go ahead and address, and it goes something like this: ‘Hey Smitty! Allies vs. Soviets are where the balance issues are! Why are you trying to fix Allies vs Allies?’
That is correct, Allied vs Soviet balance is a more pressing matter than what I’m trying to do. But if you look at the last two batches of balance changes, each one came with an important Allied nerf; artillery range then pillbox value. I expect that trend to continue in the right direction regardless of what I do.
What I’m trying to do here is add more flavor to the game. Giving France something they would actually use and making sure each faction has an offensive unit will increase the likelihood of games with different units adding their own flair to the battle. A game that Five Aces casted recently saw me using phase transports as France, which just wouldn’t have happened without the edit.

Maps:

1v1
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19239/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19301/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19302/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19303/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19304/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19462/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19466/

Team
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19891/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19890/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19889/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/19888/

I’ll get updated ones out after the release.

Feedback:
I’m particularly interested in how team players think the Sniper Drop would affect their games. If you agree, object, have a counter-proposal let me know. I’m not going to use a poll at the moment because I’m more interested in dialog at this stage.

[Clockwork]

I like it, I also love the fact it makes France not a let down when you random allies.

I rate

[RadicalEdward2]

Technically, the Soviet Attack Dog was intended as a stealth detection unit.
Their only purpose was to detect enemy spies.

Idea 1

Seeing as the Flak Truck appears to be loosely based on the BA-3/6 and the GAZ BA-64, maybe they could be given a stealth detection trait.



I know in Heroes & Generals, they designated both variants as Recon/Scout vehicles so to play with the idea of them being long range "sniper vehicles", maybe they can also open fire on cloaked units.

It should compensate for the Allies scout vehicle (the Ranger) being able to carry one passenger with it. So while Ranger can carry more, the Flak Truck can see more.

Idea 2

We could also go the more broken route by saying Tesla Coils could detected cloaked units like the Obelisk of Light but, that could be exploited fairly quickly by building Coils everywhere.
It would also contradict every stealth mission in both RA1 and 2 that involved spies (Coils could never detect Spies).


Idea 3

Make it so that Spy Planes can temporarily reveal cloaked/disguised units in it's area of influence. That way the Spy Planes won't be completely useless once every inch of a map has been scouted (either with or without Fog of War enabled).

--- For Everything Else ---
Add Greece as an Allied faction.
Give them some stat perks

Give Turkey back to the Soviets.
Give them some stat perks and the demo truck since Ukraine has air strikes.

[OMnom]

@RadicalEdward:

Tesla coils already detect stealthed units. Spy planes do as well. And if you want a unit transport, soviets have the APC?

@Smitty
I'm not against for what you've changed, but I'm certainly not in favor of it either. Sniper drop seems like an innocent enough change, but I think the moving of faction-specific units is completely pointless. If SoS's MGG works as intended, that thing has the potential to be stupidly strong against infantry blobs. If this happens, then why bother switching the two units at all? If this doesn't happen, then England becomes France w/o fake buildings + a sniper drop? Wouldn't it just be easier to give France the sniper drop instead of switching 2 units?

Regarding Spies...personally, theres a lot of room for customization here beyond the price changes. For instance, British spies could disguise as enemy units, French spies could cloak when standing still but have no disguise, and German Spies have no disguise but can steal Faction specific technology? All of these are ideas are "innocent" but would satiate your thirst for something different....point being, that there are a lot of ways to go about this, but we'd need to wait until the next patch for these new traits. In addition, the devs generally get high priority stuff done first, and wait to add "new" features in, especialyl regarding gameplay.

[RadicalEdward2]

@RadicalEdward:

Tesla coils already detect stealthed units. Spy planes do as well. And if you want a unit transport, soviets have the APC?

I'm not saying add another APC. I know the Brits have the prototype Mirage Tank with APC capabilities. But, I also didn't know that spy places and coils already detected stealth. Glad to see, I wasn't the only one to think of that lol

As for giving the Brits the Sniper, I'm 100% on-board with that idea since it's already been established in RA2 that the Brits have the Sniper as their unique unit.

I also do agree that the French should get the Phase Transport or at the very least get some stat perks that follow in-line with their history. Maybe cheaper defense structures because of their construction of the Maginot Line prior to the removal of Hitler?

Germany could get slightly increased vehicle damage like in the original game to keep in the theme of Germany's obsession with stronger tanks.

[Minotaur]

You know it'd be best if countries re-obtained their +something modifiers, but at same time suffered an additional -something modifier to balance out their strength. Or better, go fully AoE2 civ bonuses style and give each an set specially tailored for them in addition to up to 2 unique units(2 land and optionally 1 naval) or perhaps 1 unique building.
for an start:
Allies
Great Britain
Has Espionage perks.
- Has access to Fake Structures,
- Improved Spy,
- Jeeps can carry up to 3 infantry.
France
Has defensive perks.
- walls extend 50% more per build,
- Artillery has more range but reload takes longer and increased projectile sway as natural result,
- Pillboxes cheaper and built faster.
Germany
Tanks warfare oriented
- Medium Tanks have 10% more hitpoints,
- Has acess to AT Minelayer,
- Can build Tank Hunter as unique.
Greece -
Allied Naval power
- Improved Battle Ships,
- Shipyards work faster,
- Increased carry capacity for Transport Ship.
Usa
Improved Helicopters
- Longbow +2 missile
- can build Helicarrier(naval mobile helipad),
- Chinook double transport capacity.
Spain
Battle Economy
- Increased Bounty per killed unit,
- Can train Thief as unique.
Austria
Technology Powerhouse
- Engineer captures faster,
- Spysat fulling faster,
- Can build Mobile Gap Generator as unique.
Holland todo

Denmark+Norway+Sweden(New Kalamar Union) - todo

Soviets
Russia
Experimental core
- Mammoth Tank improved,
- Can build Tesla Tank.
Ukraine
Soviet Tank power
- Heavy Tanks built faster,
- Can build Industrial Plant to reduce cost of all vehicles by 50%,
- Has access to soviet MRLS instead V2(unique trade-off)
Belarus
Economy oriented
- Non-defense structures 33% cheaper,
- Harvester gives extra resource per unload,
- Refineries store more,
Soviet Turkey
Infantry oriented country
- all Infantry cheaper
- Veterancy slightly faster across the board for all it's troops,
- Has access to Paratrooper Drop power
Yugoslavia
Soviet Aerial Superiority
- MiGs have +2 ammo and fly faster,
- Airfields 20% cheaper,
- Spy Plane 50% more frequent,
Finland
Soviet Naval Power
- Submarines Travel Faster,
- Sub-Pens are cloaked,
- Native access to Sonar power.
- can build Nuclear Submarine.
Czechoslovakia
Anti Espionage theme
- Attack dogs come trained in pairs,
- Can build Hind as unique helicopter,
Poland
- Yaks have +2 ammo and are built faster,

Kazakhstan
- Flak Trucks move faster and have more sight radius,
Iraq
Chemicals instead Napalm
- V2 fire chemical warheads(green explosion, better damages),
- Can build Chem Trooper as unique.
Egypt
- Draws more resources from Oil Rigs.
- Can build Demo Trucks.
China
Napalm oriented
- V2 leaves Napalm residue on impact ground zero,
- Flametrooper improved.

totally gonna expand upon this.

edit: just edited for reading convenience.

[RadicalEdward2]

You know it'd be best if countries re-obtained their +something modifiers, but at same time suffered an additional -something modifier to balance out their strength. Or better, go fully AoE2 civ bonuses style and give each an set specially tailored for them in addition to up to 2 unique units(2 land and optionally 1 naval) or perhaps 1 unique building.
for an start:
GB - has access to fake structures, spy moves faster, Jeep increased speed and sees more.
FR - walls extend 50% more per build, artillery has more range but reload takes longer and increased projectile sway as natural result, pillboxes cheaper and built faster,
DE - Medium Tanks have 10% more hitpoints, has acess to AT Minelayer
GR - Builds Battle Ships 20% faster, Shipyards work faster, increased carry capacity for Transport Ship
US - Longbow +2 missile, can build Helicarrier(naval mobile helipad), Chinook double transport capacity
E - Increased Bounty per killed unit, can train Thief as unique.
A - Spysat fulling faster, Can build Mobile Gap Generator as unique.
Soviets
RU - non-defense structures 33% cheaper, Harvester gives extra resource per unload, Refineries store more, can build
UA - Heavy Tanks built faster, can build Industrial Plant to reduce cost of all vehicles by 50%, has access to soviet MRLS instead V2
BY - Mammoth Tank improved, Can build Tesla Tank
TR - Infantry cheaper, veterancy slightly faster across the board for all his troops, Paratrooper drop power
YU - MiGs have +2 ammo and fly faster, Airfields cheaper, Spy Plane 50% more frequent,
CZ - Can build Hind as unique helicopter,
POL - Yaks have +2 ammo and are built faster,
KZ - Flak Trucks move faster and have more sight radius,
IRQ - V2 fire chemical warheads(green explosion, better damages),
ET - Can build Demo Trucks,
China - V2 leaves Napalm residue on impact ground zero, Flametrooper improved,
i may or not return to expand upon this, obivously imcomplete, thats all for now.

I actually like these but, some of the abbreviations I don't understand (ET, BY, YU, CZ, KZ, ET, etc)

But, I think England should have the fake structures because it was probably follow the theme of the fake army from Operation Fortitude.
I think the idea of France having them probably went in-line with the idea of the French being masters of deception trope.

If KZ stands for Kazakhstan, then their perk could be faster infantry production because of the Soviet Virgin Lands program which boosted agricultural growth.

Maybe Iraq could get the Chemical Troopers from Tiberian Dawn as the precursor to the Desolator.

I also like the idea of Greece having boosted ship production.

Russia should keep it's Tesla perks though.

[SoScared]

[RadicalEdward2]

I kept on topic though lol
I mentioned the Sniper and someone mentioned that Teslas could detect stealth.

[Clockwork]

one gif animates 1000 words

[SoScared]

@RadicalEdward2: Sorry I've just seen this happen more times than I can count. I'm pretty sure Smitty specifically intended for this thread to surround his ideas.

[Clockwork]

I kept on topic though lol
I mentioned the Sniper and someone mentioned that Teslas could detect stealth.

Smitty was asking for feedback on his SNPR edit. Not new ideas on how to balance the factions. The edit only switches the ALLIED factions but your suggesting ideas and changes for SOVIET things. And then saying add Turkey and Greece?
How is that on topic?

[zinc]

I agree it's too cheap. 350 would be better than 250.

[RadicalEdward2]

I kept on topic though lol
I mentioned the Sniper and someone mentioned that Teslas could detect stealth.

Smitty was asking for feedback on his SNPR edit. Not new ideas on how to balance the factions. The edit only switches the ALLIED factions but your suggesting ideas and changes for SOVIET things. And then saying add Turkey and Greece?
How is that on topic?

Oh yeeaah that. Yeah, I got ahead of myself.

[Minotaur]

can some1 delete my post in this thread, edit keeps looping infinitely thx