On the subject of getting a better mappool (for RAGL etc.)

Not to start wars, but to have a good conversation!!

Discussion about the game and its default mods.

Do you player feel like the mappool has gone backwards since last season? Poll open for 2 weeks/round of RAGL till we have results.

Poll ended at Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:57 pm

Yes
5
24%
No
7
33%
Abstain
9
43%
 
Total votes: 21

crlf
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Post by crlf » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:43 pm

I'm going to continue my train of thought one step at a time, this time looking at the approach SoScared expressed in the Rulebook thread, beginning:

"the notion that RAGL builds around and support the current competitive meta [...] is wrong"

Whether or not that's historically true I can't say - let's talk about whether that should be the goal right now.

I understand "the meta" to refer to the favoured strategy/build/composition among the established playerbase which is generally thought to have an overall edge and thus is a preferred playstyle, at least in the maps in common circulation.

Personally I would not like to see maps which optimise heavily for one particular playstyle, as it will reduce the game to a race - who can execute the preferred build order fastest with fewest mistakes. If the whole map pool does this, diversity will be killed off, and the game will stagnate. Even the maps pick different things to optimise for, if they optimise too heavily, they diverge, the different strategies will form little isolated stagnant pools.

Furthermore, because the meta is by definition thought to be stronger, I would support the notion that the map pool should seek to challenge the meta a little, so that alternatives have the space to develop. On the other hand, if the map pool totally frustrates the meta, we've not sustainably moved the game forward, we've just left the meta in its own pool outside of the, um, RAGL map pool.

crlf
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Post by crlf » Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:56 pm

This post is for information, because we have a poll open about the map pool across two seasons and it's rather useful to be reminded what these were.

Blackened helpfully compiled stats on how frequenrtly each map was played in RAGL S2 in a feedback thread at http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/view ... 82&t=19960 which I reproduce:
[align=right]
Orelord - 66
Dual Cold Front - 43
Warwind - 37
Sidestep - 29
Behind the Veil - 24
Keep off the Grass 2 - 23
Desert Rats - 17
Singles - 13
Winter Storm - 14
Northwest Passage - 11
Crossfire - 7
Tournament Island - 4
[/align]

Five of the twelve maps were retained:

Behind the Veil
Keep off the Grass 2
Desert Rats
Winter Storm
Northwest Passage

The S3 map pool is 10 maps:

[align=right]
Agenda 128x72
Behind The Veil 2 96x70
Desert Rats (revised) 70x70
Green Belt 96x96
Keep off The Grass 2 58x58
Northwest Passage (revised) 72x72
Patches 87x74
Pitfight (revised) 90x90
Rocky Ravine 82x82
Winter Storm 2 (revised) 89x82
[/align]

When the map pool was initially announced, it included a version of Dual Cold Front (which was in S2 unrevised), but not Desert Rats (revised), Keep off The Grass 2, or Rocky Ravine.
Last edited by crlf on Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Blackened
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Post by Blackened » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:38 pm

I agree with some of your other points but
the current RAGL map pool, while diverse in selection, has nearly no diversity in gameplay


this part has me wondering and while I spent a decent amount of time writing a paragraph I realized that is could be summed as:

Right now the meta is very rigid and any deviation from it will likely result in a loss.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:10 am

Just one last thing before I too sign off this topic (I could pick this up again sometime post-season). One non-negotiable prerequisite for me to leave the map pool picks and strategy to others, or to compromise with a certain established consensus would be for the league structure to be exported over to a public external system - that doesn't require me to personally supervise up to 528 matches over the course of 3 months. I'm sure somewhere out there there's a masochistic superhero that would love the task of quality checking the week-rounds, played on maps he or she would have less than an ideal amount of interest with. I'm not that person.

The RAGL isn't an open-source collaboration nor is it a public service. It could certainly look that way with the support of blood-and-sweat dedicated tech staff (Jazz_KCS), graphic designers (warman, myself) and a big fat juicy prize pool (the best contributors!) but the fact is, as it stands today the league is simply a (big) private party and everyone's invited.

I'll be early out with a feedback thread after the season. Until then, as far as I'm concerned the discussions about the league map pool is moot. The course it set, it's gonna be sick and I'm personally looking forward to rub it in hard with some of you guys by the end of the season :styx:

Chimpo
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Post by Chimpo » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:14 am

In general I'd like to see as many new maps make up the pool as possible as performing well on new maps is a better measure of player ability.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:07 pm

Thats a measure of player creativity not skill, if one player hones their arts on the generic maps playing 30+ hours a week and becomes a powerhouse but is then beaten on a new map because the other players far weaker but found a new innotive way to play that map doesnt mean that player has more ability.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:12 pm

Thats a measure of player creativity not skill, if one player hones their arts on the generic maps playing 30+ hours a week and becomes a powerhouse but is then beaten on a new map because the other players far weaker but found a new innotive way to play that map doesnt mean that player has more ability.

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Doomsday
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Post by Doomsday » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:02 pm

Happy wrote: Thats a measure of player creativity not skill, if one player hones their arts on the generic maps playing 30+ hours a week and becomes a powerhouse but is then beaten on a new map because the other players far weaker but found a new innotive way to play that map doesnt mean that player has more ability.
Fair point. However, I strongly think creativity and innovation is part of skills.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
-Sun Tzu

eskimo
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Post by eskimo » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:24 pm

Happy wrote: Thats a measure of player creativity not skill......
Imo this would apply moreso in the lower levels of players. The better/top players i think would be able to counter any tactics that suit a particular map due to their skill of accessing battles. Also i think any little tricks on a map would be discovered quickly by better players due to their experience overall. They shouldn't need endless hours of play to play efficiently on new maps.

But either way i have no comment on the map pool. They're mostly all new maps to me anyway :lol:

Chimpo
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Post by Chimpo » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:29 am

eskimo wrote:
Happy wrote: Thats a measure of player creativity not skill......
Imo this would apply moreso in the lower levels of players. The better/top players i think would be able to counter any tactics that suit a particular map due to their skill of accessing battles. Also i think any little tricks on a map would be discovered quickly by better players due to their experience overall. They shouldn't need endless hours of play to play efficiently on new maps.

But either way i have no comment on the map pool. They're mostly all new maps to me anyway :lol:

It's just an additional measure of ability, if you are on a new map and can adapt fast, it also takes the practice element out of it (critically), since certainly playing a map many times can give you an advantage.

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Clockwork
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Post by Clockwork » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:20 am

i agree with you eskimo, someone thinking of a creative strat and adapting fast to a new map will only work once vs high skilled players cause theyll just watch the replay and then strat countered. Maybe you could pull the wool over their eyes once but hence after superior macro and micro will always win.

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