Should we give Soviets their Hind back ?

[Mortecha]

Stop posting here until you come back with either a) your own shp of the helicopter you want to use,b) posting a bounty for the devs to change the shp to the helicopter you're talking about, or c) your own balance playtests with what you are suggesting, If you want help making this helicopter, ask Fortnight to help you. If you want help playtesting, I'm willing to try a few games. But until you actually do something, this thread is a heaping pile of shit.

What do you think I've been doing?? There is also absolutely no need for you to be passive aggressive dude.

I do actually need help with two things. The format the shp is in raises an exception when the game starts and I can't seem to get the remap to match the default remap color expressed by vanilla RA shps. Most of my experience regarding shps is for RA2.

Code: Select all

Red Alert Mod at Version release-20161019
Date: 2017-02-21 20:18:34Z
Operating System: Windows (Microsoft Windows NT 6.1.7601 Service Pack 1)
Runtime Version: .NET CLR 4.0.30319.42000
Exception of type `System.IndexOutOfRangeException`: Index was outside the bounds of the array.
   at OpenRA.Mods.Common.FileFormats.LCWCompression.DecodeInto(Byte[] src, Byte[] dest, Int32 srcOffset, Boolean reverse)
   at OpenRA.Mods.Common.SpriteLoaders.ShpTDSprite.Decompress(ImageHeader h)
   at OpenRA.Mods.Common.SpriteLoaders.ShpTDSprite..ctor(Stream stream)
   at OpenRA.Mods.Common.SpriteLoaders.ShpTDLoader.TryParseSprite(Stream s, ISpriteFrame[]& frames)
   at OpenRA.Graphics.SpriteLoader.GetFrames(Stream stream, ISpriteLoader[] loaders)
   at OpenRA.Graphics.SpriteLoader.GetFrames(IReadOnlyFileSystem fileSystem, String filename, ISpriteLoader[] loaders)
   at OpenRA.Graphics.SpriteLoader.GetSprites(IReadOnlyFileSystem fileSystem, String filename, ISpriteLoader[] loaders, SheetBuilder sheetBuilder)
   at OpenRA.Graphics.SpriteCache.LoadSprite(String filename, List`1 cache)
   at OpenRA.Graphics.SpriteCache.get_Item(String filename)
   at OpenRA.Mods.Common.Graphics.DefaultSpriteSequence..ctor(ModData modData, TileSet tileSet, SpriteCache cache, ISpriteSequenceLoader loader, String sequence, String animation, MiniYaml info)
   at OpenRA.Mods.Common.Graphics.TilesetSpecificSpriteSequenceLoader.CreateSequence(ModData modData, TileSet tileSet, SpriteCache cache, String sequence, String animation, MiniYaml info)
   at OpenRA.Mods.Common.Graphics.DefaultSpriteSequenceLoader.ParseSequences(ModData modData, TileSet tileSet, SpriteCache cache, MiniYamlNode node)
   at OpenRA.Graphics.SequenceProvider.<Load>c__AnonStorey1.<>m__0&#40;&#41;
   at System.Lazy`1.CreateValue&#40;&#41;
   at System.Lazy`1.LazyInitValue&#40;&#41;
   at System.Lazy`1.get_Value&#40;&#41;
   at OpenRA.Graphics.SequenceProvider.Preload&#40;&#41;
   at OpenRA.Map.PostInit&#40;&#41;
   at OpenRA.Map..ctor&#40;ModData modData, IReadOnlyPackage package&#41;
   at OpenRA.ModData.PrepareMap&#40;String uid&#41;
   at OpenRA.Game.StartGame&#40;String mapUID, WorldType type&#41;
   at OpenRA.Game.LoadShellMap&#40;&#41;
   at OpenRA.Mods.Common.LoadScreens.BlankLoadScreen.StartGame&#40;Arguments args&#41;
   at OpenRA.Game.InitializeMod&#40;String mod, Arguments args&#41;
   at OpenRA.Game.Initialize&#40;Arguments args&#41;
   at OpenRA.Program.Run&#40;String&#91;&#93; args&#41;
   at OpenRA.Program.Main&#40;String&#91;&#93; args&#41;

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HERE IS A TEST SHP I AM TRYING TO GET IN GAME. THIS IS NOT THE FINAL PRODUCT ...

[Sleipnir]

The TD format shps that OS Shp Builder saves aren't compatible with OpenRA, and so far nobody has investigated whether the bug is with OS Shp Builder, OpenRA, or both.

Saving it as TS format or using XCC to convert shp -> png -> shp(td) should both work.

[Mortecha]

The TD format shps that OS Shp Builder saves aren't compatible with OpenRA, and so far nobody has investigated whether the bug is with OS Shp Builder, OpenRA, or both.

Saving it as TS format or using XCC to convert shp -> png -> shp(td) should both work.

Thanks for that, managed to get it working in game. Will still have to figure out the remap and I'll be re-rendering to scaling it up just a tad to match the dimensions of the Apache and to try to squeeze out more detail. After that I'll go over it acouple of times by hand to match the details with the other shps. But for now it works in game.



HERE IS A TEST SHP THAT WORKS IN GAME. THIS IS NOT THE FINAL PRODUCT ...

[camundahl]

I actually wasn’t kidding when I said add it to the FAQ. The Reddit Polandball community does the same thing for the hordes of people who feel the need to point out Poland is drawn upside down. http://i.imgur.com/LEXKLjf.png#shelf-tutorial

I could do a much more eloquent write-up for the FAQ page if folks are interested. This is clearly the way to go to me because:

A. Giving the Soviets the Hind will severely affect balance.
B. Changing the name from Hind to Cobra will result in the same complaints from military junkies because visually the unit is clearly a Hind and not a skinny Cobra.
C. Changing the .shp into a cobra would visually remove a unit that was a part of Red Alert, and will unnecessarily take OpenRA further away from the original source.

Directing people to the FAQ when the point out the Soviets invented the Hind is the best way to handle this. The FAQ’s could also be made more specific to explain the reasoning behind the Flak Truck, etc.

P.S. - The M113 APC was clearly an Allied vehicle! It must be changed to the BMP if it remains Soviet!!

Hey I'm down for a Soviet BMP with TD style gun and APC on allies side!

[klaas]

Didn't the sniper get removed for not being original artwork?

If the choice was made not to include custom artwork by default, does it make sense to push for custom artwork on a helicopter, where original artwork is already available? Not that I'm against making new artwork, just seems like it could end with disappointment.

If it is so sensitive, just renaming the Hind, or making up a small story in the FAQ would be far easier. I don't see how giving the Hind back to the Soviets is not going to break the air balance.

[Chimpo]

I think just change the artwork for the hind and rename it, maybe a cobra or huey. Basically it would wreck balance, so no.

[Chimpo]

Didn't the sniper get removed for not being original artwork?

If the choice was made not to include custom artwork by default, does it make sense to push for custom artwork on a helicopter, where original artwork is already available? Not that I'm against making new artwork, just seems like it could end with disappointment.

If it is so sensitive, just renaming the Hind, or making up a small story in the FAQ would be far easier. I don't see how giving the Hind back to the Soviets is not going to break the air balance.

Bring back the sniper, there's a change I could get behind.

[FiveAces]

I think I can speak on behalf of most of the competitive community when stating that this makes zero sense from a gameplay standpoint.

If you would like to have the Hind camo and/or name replaced with an Allied helicopter like,
say, the Cobra, then I'm sure most people, myself included, wouldn't mind;
but giving the Soviets an attack helicopter in addition to their trademark aircraft while simultaneously depriving the Allies of their most important scouting/ crowd control tool
will create an absolute balance nightmare.
Besides, the Hind and Yak would overlap way too much in their role.

The reason why the unit distribution worked in the original was that aircraft played a marginal role at best;
in OpenRA they are an important part of the counter system.

[Mortecha]

Didn't the sniper get removed for not being original artwork?

If the choice was made not to include custom artwork by default, does it make sense to push for custom artwork on a helicopter, where original artwork is already available? Not that I'm against making new artwork, just seems like it could end with disappointment.

If it is so sensitive, just renaming the Hind, or making up a small story in the FAQ would be far easier. I don't see how giving the Hind back to the Soviets is not going to break the air balance.

Sniper was added on Jul 28th 2012 and removed on May 9th 2015. The argument that it was removed purely because of it's artwork seems like abit of a stretch since there is the Flack Truck. Instead I'd think it would be more reasonable to assume that it was removed for of balancing reasons. If I'm wrong please feel free to correct me.

If the artwork is good enough to be indistinguishable from Westwood's art assets then that would hardly be a problem, If the unit is fixing holes in balance. While doing that, if the unit fixes a gaping hole in an aesthetic choice then that is a bonus.

Again, simply renaming the Hind to something else like Cobra is not going to change the fact it's still looks like a Hind. This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't a Hind. As I have said before and I'll say it again because people just skim my posts. THE HIND IS FAMOUS AND IS QUINTESSENTIALLY RUSSIAN.

I think I can speak on behalf of most of the competitive community when stating that this makes zero sense from a gameplay standpoint.

If you would like to have the Hind camo and/or name replaced with an Allied helicopter like,
say, the Cobra, then I'm sure most people, myself included, wouldn't mind;
but giving the Soviets an attack helicopter in addition to their trademark aircraft while simultaneously depriving the Allies of their most important scouting/ crowd control tool
will create an absolute balance nightmare.
Besides, the Hind and Yak would overlap way too much in their role.

The reason why the unit distribution worked in the original was that aircraft played a marginal role at best;
in OpenRA they are an important part of the counter system.

Switching the Hind back over to the Soviets was only one of two options. It's just one that is the most difficult to achieve and the most painful for the entire competitive community to adapt too as you're essentially re-balancing a portion of the game. I would prefer to avoid that in favor of a shp replacement as this keeps the balance unchanged.

I'm also a fan of how it's balanced is currently even if the Longbow seems just a tad bit overvalued.

[zinc]

From what I remember, snipers were removed because they weren't original. Shock troopers were buffed to compensate.

The flak truck isn't original but was far more needed for game balance. (I'm guessing.)

[zinc]

We could rename it, and also have a story it was based on stolen plans...

[anjew]

C. Changing the .shp into a cobra would visually remove a unit that was a part of Red Alert, and will unnecessarily take OpenRA further away from the original source.

In my opinion, this is completely moot. There are already enough elements that make OpenRA completely different from the original source. If people want the original source they usually play at CnCnet.

Im not condoning adding 100 different units but changing the shp is a minor change that will NOT affect gameplay at all and will make the multiple people who complain about this at least a little happy. It is evident a vast majority of the people posting here were also confused by the Hind being available to Allies and some of it being based on the name alone. So unless some magic balancing is done, people will always ask why the helicopter is on allies side. Much like they ask why there is a flak cannon and why Tanya isnt available to both sides.

In OpenRA's lore not only did Albert Einstein kill Time-Hitler, but Soviet aerospace engineer Mikhail Mil became angry with Stalin for being a big meanie, and defected to the Allies with the designs for the Hind.

Is this actual lore or are you suggesting that OpenRA creates a lore to justify all of it decisions?
I don't think creating an OpenRA specific lore will provide much other than a new topic for people to argue over.
Especially when there is already a section in the FAQ saying that this isnt the original

[Irnub]

For what it's worth, I also agree that the Hind appearing as an Allied unit is incongruent. I think Mortecha has done some good work and it'd be cool to see the Allied Hind replaced with the Huey shp posted above

Edit: To be honest, even the Huey might be considered a little out of place as it is primarily an American helicopter, and RA is based around a European/Russian conflict. But, at least it is Western and appropriate to the alt-1950s setting.

[JuiceBox]

I can't believe this has brought up so much attention! Such a trivial issue and everyone is getting involved its unbelievable.....

Of all the things that this game needs we are all talking about a helicopters name and what it's pixels represents , nothing to do with balance or gameplay just simple nit picking at irrelevant issues. Many a good topic gets overlooked in this forum that bring up real issues and bring up good questions and no-one bothers to make any contribution, yet people are getting hung up on the hind issue?

Once this or if this gets changed the game will still have all the issues it has now... WAOW what a waste of time and resources. Wouldn't it be more beneficial if people spent time worrying about meaningful subjects?

But yea let's get hung up on a helicopter.....jesus...

[Smitty]

@anjew: What I was trying to get at from my list of points is that there is no solution that leaves us without complainers. There are quite possibly a few more people who would complain about historical accuracy than complain about OpenRA moving further away from Red Alert, but making changes over which side is louder is a bad way of going about things.

I have strong doubts about people not complaining over a visual change away from the game. There are quite a few players who play offline only, and I would assume the main reason to do that would be over nostalgia for the original.

I’m not suggesting we shrug everything off by writing lore. Personally I would place my half-hearted attempt at lore followed by an explanation of why the change was made for gameplay reasons. As long as it conveys the proper, ‘Because that’s the way it needed to be’, attitude any such addition to the FAQ should suffice.

Remember, the goal here isn’t to get rid of complainers. (Because that’s impossible). It’s to find the best way to address them.

@Mortecha: If you’re going to model a Huey or Cobra into the game over historical accuracy you best do it right. Both are two-bladed helicopters, not four.