Should we give Soviets their Hind back ?

Discussion about the game and its default mods.

Should Allies only have a (balanced) Longbow and give Soviets their Hind back ?

Poll ended at Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:51 pm

Yes
21
44%
No
23
48%
I have a different Idea
4
8%
 
Total votes: 48

Mortecha
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Post by Mortecha »

scorp wrote:
Fortnight wrote:
IRL "Mil Mi-24" Hinds are Soviet but Red Alert is an alternative universe and a name is fixable simply by renaming. I haven't really reflected on the name before to be honest.
.
true, but the original RA got it right initially, why change it for the wrong in OpenRA? it feels like a step backwards, even if it helps balancing.

I understand people's concerns about not changing current air force balancing in OpenRA because they're used ot it, but if we look at it from a game design perspective, im not convinced:

Longbow, as the most advanced Heli in the game, appears underused, overpriced ineffective for most combat purposes. The Mig, most advanced plane in the game, appears underused overpriced, ineffective for most combat purposes. The Yak, WW2 era plane is mass used as a scout, as a bomber, as a suicide dive bomb. The Hind, a multi-purpose gunship is used as Scout, infantry mauler, arty sniper and makeshift bomber against undefended or weak buildings.

Air force balancing between the several original RA units thus appears at the least slightly lacking. Giving it an overhaul that also fixes wrong lore would be desirable from that perspective.

*in an ideal Scenario, the Hind on soviet side gets a small infantry carrying capacity and the Chinook is changed so that it could take up some of the purposes the Hind is currently used for on the allied side. Only downside to that is that *landwhenidle* is a bit clunky to use. Is it just my Impression that helidrops (except tanya of course) are rarely used in games?
And Longbow/Mig should be overall a bit more useful, too.
I couldn't agree more and I hope to also fix these issues more so as a byproduct of this issue. These will inadvertently occur through the balancing process which in the end I hope we all like.

I recall a stream where I think SoScared was comparing the Longbow to the Hind and was saying that it's just not worth producing it as the longbows cost verses it's actual value was too great.

I have thought of the Hinds transport capacity but the land while idle for the transport helicopter is not and ideal trait to have for an assault helicopter as they would try to land in the middle of the battlefield close to the enemy.

eskimo
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Post by eskimo »

If the tab edit comes it may shift the meta slightly, so discussing tech changes is a difficult subject.

If tanks were changed, shifting rockies aside slightly, heavier aircraft may see more play. Not suggesting a change there just showing what consequently happens.

I voted new unit as i'd love a new soviet ground unit. Something ranger/light tank style. But my opinion is moot not having the experience with the game.

Also isn't the Mig set to recieve a buff?
-i don't know where the logged changes are so just going by what i've heard

scorp
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Post by scorp »

Mortecha wrote:
I couldn't agree more and I hope to also fix these issues more so as a byproduct of this issue. These will inadvertently occur through the balancing process which in the end I hope we all like.

I recall a stream where I think SoScared was comparing the Longbow to the Hind and was saying that it's just not worth producing it as the longbows cost verses it's actual value was too great.

I have thought of the Hinds transport capacity but the land while idle for the transport helicopter is not and ideal trait to have for an assault helicopter as they would try to land in the middle of the battlefield close to the enemy.
In a small mod i made quite a while ago, i used Hinds as both attack- and transporthelicopters. I had to a-move them to keep them in air or give a sequence of movement orders so it did make them quite a bit more micro-intensive. So yeah, in order to make double-purpose helicopters conveniently playable, a different engine mechanic than "landwhenidle" is probably required. Like a hotkey for force-landing an aircraft that is capable of landing. Unless hotkey is pressed together with movement order, the aircraft would remain in the air.

But that's a detail here. I generally hope for a good solution to aircraft balance and lore issues that are IMHO definitly present in OpenRA

zinc
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Post by zinc »

Sire wrote: I personally would love to see a "Flamethrower Helicopter" because that sounds awesome
Someone did make one for a custom rules map a few releases back. It was pretty good.

I think it would be nice if they could become available if you have both (a) a heli pad, and (b) a flame tower.

That way, you would hardly see them in games, but they would exist as a special unit for those that capture an enemy MCV of the correct type. It's not an original part of the game but it wouldn't personally offend me if it's only a rare thing.
Last edited by zinc on Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zinc
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Post by zinc »

No, I wouldn't change it back to how the original operates. Although I don't mind the idea of giving helis to a new Soviet nation, but that's about it.

I think the way air works in OpenRA is great and way better than the original. Migs need a buff perhaps but Soviets don't need helis. As it is, planes are better for base destruction so why complain? Maybe not as good for vision on the battlefield but then they have the spy plane.

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Materianer
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Post by Materianer »

This sounds like another troll poll for me or could someone explain me how you can balance the Longbow to compensate such a change?
It would break the whole balance and like evreything must to be changed if you want to make this playable.
Feel free and try to create a map with such changes.
If it is working well without breaking the whole balance of openra come back and start a new poll about that, but like this it is just to laugh at.

lucassss
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Post by lucassss »

1) Gameplay is more important than realism
2) If you like realism so much, just rename hind into something else and that's it, no need to create a new hind unit for sovs.

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Materianer
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Post by Materianer »

zinc wrote: Someone did make one for a custom rules map a few releases back. It was pretty good.
http://resource.openra.net/maps/17891/

If someone wants to reactivate him i think the withrotoroverlay trait changed or so.

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JuiceBox
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Post by JuiceBox »

I agree with omnom take the poll Down.

I agree with lucas. if it bothers you that much just change the name

I agree with Smitty. Time travel, crono tanks, crono shifts, Tesla tanks, iron curtain shock troopers ... And we are talking about realism......

If your serious about switching about units Omnom is correct. Log 100 hrs of play tests and come back to us with some evidence to support you claim.
"I love the smell of JuiceBoxes in the morning"
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Apocalypse Now

Mortecha
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Post by Mortecha »

JuiceBox wrote: I agree with omnom take the poll Down.

I agree with lucas. if it bothers you that much just change the name

I agree with Smitty. Time travel, crono tanks, crono shifts, Tesla tanks, iron curtain shock troopers ... And we are talking about realism......

If your serious about switching about units Omnom is correct. Log 100 hrs of play tests and come back to us with some evidence to support you claim.
Absolutely, RA contains alot of Scifi elements, but that is no reason to excuse the blatant lack of thought that went into adding the Hind to the Allied build tree where it's completely out of place. Changing the name won't change the fact that the shp represents a Hind, which as I have stated many times is an iconic and famous Russian assault helicopter. It's an absolute blatant disregard of logic.

Sure for purposes of balance, an Allied helicopter performing the role the Hind does currently would work really well. I have suggested and am currently finishing a shp of a Huey Gunship which would be a perfect replacement for this possibility.

The other alternative would be to move the Hind back to the Soviets where it belongs, and then iterate over the design process continuously until balance of all the air units and their relationships with other units is reached, that has always been a given. It is a difficult and time consuming process, but it will fix this issue regarding lore completely and all of the current shortcomings in the air balance as well as the current similarities between the Hind and the Yak would be addressed.

I suspect it may have been worthwhile adding a description about what is actually being addressed since I feel most of the negative feedback is down to people being misinformed about the issue through a simple lack of understanding of the core issue itself. And on top of that the blatantly obvious re-balancing process that will be required once the Hind is returned to the Soviets where it should be.

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir »

Mortecha wrote: Absolutely, RA contains alot of Scifi elements, but that is no reason to excuse the blatant lack of thought that went into adding the Hind to the Allied build tree where it's completely out of place.
A significant amount of thought did go into moving the hind to the Allies. Thoughts like "this is a game, not a historical simulation" and "how can we improve the horrible aircraft balance and unit-role overlaps from the original game". You may not agree with these thoughts, but being dismissive really doesn't help your argument.

Mortecha
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Post by Mortecha »

Sleipnir wrote: A significant amount of thought did go into moving the hind to the Allies. Thoughts like "this is a game, not a historical simulation" and "how can we improve the horrible aircraft balance and unit-role overlaps from the original game". You may not agree with these thoughts, but being dismissive really doesn't help your argument.
I have absolutely no problem with adding a helicopter to the Allies for balance reasons, the same applies to all of the other changes that have been done over the years to make the game what it is today. The balance is much better than vanilla that's for sure.

What I don't agree with though is the use of the Hind, as an Allied unit. That is what I am referring too when I say "blatant lack of thought". I have no intention of being dismissive at all, and apologise if I came across that way.

Other than that, everything is fantastic.

One of two options will fix this. Either by replacing the Hind with a shp that is to the same standards as Westwood's artwork. I would recommend a Huey Gunship at it fits best.

Or

Move the Hind back over to the Soviets and do some re-balancing with the Apache and and other air units. A more lengthy and iterative process.

Both would work well. I understand that there would be a hell of alot of reluctance to adopt even the potential for new ideas, especially since everything has been fine tuned and adopted over the years. But the Allies having the Hind in their arsenal is jut wrong. And I'm not trying to make the game historically accurate by any means.

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JuiceBox
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Post by JuiceBox »

Smitty wrote: In OpenRA's lore not only did Albert Einstein kill Time-Hitler, but Soviet aerospace engineer Mikhail Mil became angry with Stalin for being a big meanie, and defected to the Allies with the designs for the Hind.
Sits good enough for me.
End of chat
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OMnom
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Post by OMnom »

Mortecha wrote:
Sleipnir wrote: A significant amount of thought did go into moving the hind to the Allies. Thoughts like "this is a game, not a historical simulation" and "how can we improve the horrible aircraft balance and unit-role overlaps from the original game". You may not agree with these thoughts, but being dismissive really doesn't help your argument.
I have absolutely no problem with adding a helicopter to the Allies for balance reasons, the same applies to all of the other changes that have been done over the years to make the game what it is today. The balance is much better than vanilla that's for sure.

What I don't agree with though is the use of the Hind, as an Allied unit. That is what I am referring too when I say "blatant lack of thought". I have no intention of being dismissive at all, and apologise if I came across that way.

Other than that, everything is fantastic.

One of two options will fix this. Either by replacing the Hind with a shp that is to the same standards as Westwood's artwork. I would recommend a Huey Gunship at it fits best.

Or

Move the Hind back over to the Soviets and do some re-balancing with the Apache and and other air units. A more lengthy and iterative process.

Both would work well. I understand that there would be a hell of alot of reluctance to adopt even the potential for new ideas, especially since everything has been fine tuned and adopted over the years. But the Allies having the Hind in their arsenal is jut wrong. And I'm not trying to make the game historically accurate by any means.
Stop posting here until you come back with either a) your own shp of the helicopter you want to use,b) posting a bounty for the devs to change the shp to the helicopter you're talking about, or c) your own balance playtests with what you are suggesting, If you want help making this helicopter, ask Fortnight to help you. If you want help playtesting, I'm willing to try a few games. But until you actually do something, this thread is a heaping pile of shit.

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Smitty
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Post by Smitty »

I actually wasn’t kidding when I said add it to the FAQ. The Reddit Polandball community does the same thing for the hordes of people who feel the need to point out Poland is drawn upside down. http://i.imgur.com/LEXKLjf.png#shelf-tutorial

I could do a much more eloquent write-up for the FAQ page if folks are interested. This is clearly the way to go to me because:

A. Giving the Soviets the Hind will severely affect balance.
B. Changing the name from Hind to Cobra will result in the same complaints from military junkies because visually the unit is clearly a Hind and not a skinny Cobra.
C. Changing the .shp into a cobra would visually remove a unit that was a part of Red Alert, and will unnecessarily take OpenRA further away from the original source.

Directing people to the FAQ when they point out the Soviets invented the Hind is the best way to handle this. The FAQ’s could also be made more specific to explain the reasoning behind the Flak Truck, etc.

P.S. - The M113 APC was clearly an Allied vehicle! It must be changed to the BMP if it remains Soviet!! :drunk:
Last edited by Smitty on Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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