Red Alert Overhaul (third Soviet faction, Uzbekistan)

A complete overhaul of the game

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:19 pm

Demolition Truck

1) Build time from 60 to 45 sec.
2) No longer gives bounty.

Motivations:

1) This is part of the the changed build times in overhaul, usually I've made a cap at 30 seconds for all units on all factions. Demo Truck is however one of two exceptions that has 45 sec instead (MCV is the other one). 60 sec is a long time to block the build queue, the Demo Truck is already expensive in credits (2500), it doesn't need to be so expensive in time as well.

2) I'm not sure if the 250 credit bounty was meant to be a small consolation prize for the enemy if he manages to trigger the nuke instead of the player that owns the truck? Intentional or not I removed it. Felt like it was unintentional to me but it kind of works for gameplay to have such a bounty, maybe it should be higher and the owner should be reminded about it in the unit description so he is more careful about trying to trigger the nuke himself?
Attachments
dtrkicon-0000.png
dtrkicon-0000.png (3.11 KiB) Viewed 2693 times

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:39 pm

Supply Truck

1) No longer gives a bounty when killed.
2) Can be deployed to a Supply Tent, which works as a Barracks for 22 seconds. The tent can't be sold, repaired or undeployed back into a truck.

Motivations:

1) Since Supply Truck spawns a crate that gives 500 credits to whoever picks it up I felt that it's unnecessary that it also gives an extra 50 credit bounty. :D

2) I want every unit to be worth producing in OpenRA, even Supply Truck. In vanilla its only purpose is to transport credits between allied players, meaning it is useless if you don't have an ally. However I still wonder how often it is used even in matches where there are teams, I've never actually seen anyone use it legitimately myself (some build them just for fun).

As for the ability to make a Barracks it goes together with the fact that Conn Yard now spawns a MCV husk when destroyed. A player could restore their Conn Yard with Barracks + Service Depot now, not just War Factory + Service Depot (both Hijacker and Mechanic can capture husks in overhaul). This means that a player might want to keep a hidden Supply Truck around, just in case they need a barracks. If not the cash can always be reclaimed by driving into one of your own buildings. It also goes well together with Uzbekistan, which does not have any ground based infantry transport. And finally it opens up some new strategies, like for example spawning an Engineer (or Tanya) closer to the enemy base when the time is right.

If people dislike the idea of the Supply Tent I have a second proposal (not currently in overhaul): Make the Supply Tent act like an medic, just with a bigger AOE and more heal. It would still disappear after X seconds and still can't be undeployed, repaired or sold. This would make Supply Truck worth producing if you know there's going to be a infantry blob vs infantry blob battle.
Attachments
supply_truck_and_its_tent.png
supply_truck_and_its_tent.png (9.68 KiB) Viewed 2677 times
Last edited by Fortnight on Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:50 am

M.A.D. Tank

If Rocket Soldier is the unit that needs rebalancing the most then the MAD Tank is the unit that needs reworking the most. 2000 credits and maximum required tech level is simply too much for a suicide unit that moves very slowly and doesn't do that much damage.

The first change is that its movement speed has been increased from 56 to 60. A modest change of just 6.666% but it makes it more plausible to move it across the map without naval transportation and it gains the ability to escape Rocket Soldiers. (For perspective the Mammoth Tank was buffed from 50 to 55 in overhaul and normal infantry movement speed remains at 56 as always.

The second change is that its line-of-sight has been reduced from 6 cells to 5 cells (normal vehicle vision). It's not intended for scouting, the extra cell of vision felt like an unnecessary perk for it to have. It still has heavy armor but got more HP, from 900 to 1000, so that it is able to get into position or has a better chance of escaping. It still dies instantly if Iron Curtained, something that is now mentioned in the unit description so that new players isn't caught off guard by this.

[tab]The third and biggest change is that it no longer has the "MadTank" trait.
[tab]It is no longer a suicide unit but one that can be repositioned.

It is now deployable into a thumping version of the MAD Tank and then undeployable back into a mobile version of the MAD Tank. It takes a short while to transition, leaving an opening for the enemy to deal free damage to the MAD Tank if they are nearby.

After being deployed it deals damage to the surrounding area in a huge area. The thumping frequency has been slowed down and I've matched the animation with the thumping sound and damage. The MAD Tank's sounds have been repurposed to fit the new behaviour.

Damage is dealt in three sections: 0-5 cells away receives 100% of the damage. 5-8 cells away receives 99-50% of the damage. 9-10 cells away receives 49-0% of the damage. So placement of the tank is still important. Graphical effects appear on the ground in three steps to make both the attacker and defender clearly see the three sections immediately understand the size of at least the total affected area.

Actual damage is no longer percentage based as it was with the "MadTank" trait. It is a constant 40 per thump which affects the different armor types in "reversed severity": 100% to Concrete, 40% to Wood, 20% to Heavy, 10% to Light. Just 1 damage is dealt to infantry regardless of how close to the center they are, making them prone in the full AOE.

MAD Tank is placed into a unique strategic position in the game since it works better the more well-armored something is. The man-made earthquake shakes and cracks the foundations of more solid objects while lighter things aren't affected as much due to being less rigid.

It takes time to bring down large HP structures and the thumps are spaced out to give enough space for the enemy to react. When deployed the MAD Tank becomes extra vulnerable: It keeps its heavy armor but the current and max HP is reduced by two thirds (from 1000 max HP to 333 max HP). This means it will still be resistant to for example Rifle Infantry but goes down pretty quickly if its armor can be pierced. If ordered to stop thumping its HP will return to normal (scaled so any damage received while thumping is retained).

The role of the MAD Tank remains as a sneak attack unit. Damage is dealt to friendly units as well. Prepare one or two of them positioned where the enemy can't see, lure the main army away from their base and then move in while the other player is distracted. If you play your cards right you could disable a large part of the enemy's operation. If you play them wrong he has enough time to attack the MAD Tanks while thumping.

I believe these changes makes the unit a decent option compared to producing another Mammoth Tank for the same amount of credits. The MAD Tank's faster movement speed, increased durability, more total non-percentage-based damage (spaced out over longer time) and above all reusability gives it purpose in the right situation and worth all that teching up and production credits.

Making the MAD Tank non-suicidal also makes it not intrude on the "uniqueness" of the Demo Truck -- an easy-to-use unit that deals large amounts of damage immediately at the cost of sacrificing itself. MAD Tank is now a hard-to-use unit that deals large amounts of damage over time without the cost of sacrificing itself. ("Hard" to use because it can't simply drive into the enemy; you need to create space for it to do its thing.)

If you are playing Ukraine and therefore have access to the Demo Truck the MAD Tank might still be an option with these changes, giving the right circumstances. Demo Truck is just 500 credits more than a MAD Tank, currently in vanilla I can't see a situation where I would produce a MAD Tank over a Demo Truck. If the MAD Tank is to be buffed it should be done in such a way that it can compete with the Demo Truck in at least some situations.
Attachments
qtnkicon-0000.png
qtnkicon-0000.png (3.12 KiB) Viewed 2656 times

User avatar
WhoCares
Posts: 287
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:28 pm

Post by WhoCares » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:48 am

The mad tank seems a very good work, i had the chance (or misfortune) to test the ORA mad tank today and as a new player, i felt pretty disapointed and sad to see so much credit thrown away in a useless unit.

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:16 pm

@WhoCares: Thanks for the feedback!

Service Depot

1) Changed footprint from "_x_ xxx _x_" to "_=_ xxx _=_", meaning vehicles can drive across the top/bottom cells of the structure.
2) Repair speed increased. HP per step increased 50%, delay between steps decreased 40%. Adjusted to be exactly 10 times faster than a Mechanic.

Cost to repair remains the same but is specified in the description ("Half health = 10% of the unit's purchase price").

Motivations:

1) This makes it a shorter for units to drive around the depot, which especially helps if several tanks are queued up for repair. Graphics-wise there's plenty of room in the cell for the top/bottom part of the depot so it doesn't make sense for tanks to not drive through the cell. Note: Placement of the structure is still in the shape of a plus, buildings still can't be placed in the top/bottom cell like usual.

2) The biggest cost of repairing units is actually time. Few players bother to send damaged tanks all the way back from the battlefield in order to repair them. With faster repair speed however doing so becomes more worth while, especially if clearly specified as it being ten times faster than the Mechanic (so allied players can repair for free or pay a little bit but in return save a lot of time).
Attachments
service_depot.png
service_depot.png (10.34 KiB) Viewed 2614 times

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:31 pm

Shipyard and Sub Pen

1) Fixed allied icon to say "Shipyard" instead of "Naval Yard".
2) Shipyard and Sub Pen can now spawn all types of naval units.
3) They can now repair units at incredible speed but it isn't cheap ("Half health = 40% of the unit's purchase price").
4) Their armor type has changed from Light to Wood.
5) They can now detect submarines 8.5 cells away from the structure.
6) Structure line-of-sight increased from 4 to 5 cells.
7) Can now place Shipyard or Sub Pen freely within the construction circle ("adjacent" value from 8 cells to 9999).

Motivations:

1) This was done because I had become used to "Shipyard" instead of "Naval Yard". The original Red Alert game called it "Naval Yard" though and the building will actually be renamed to "Naval Yard" in the next OpenRA release. I'll admit that using the original name makes more sense even though shipyard rolls off the tongue better for me but I'm happy as long as the icon text and the name text match. :D

2) This usually only comes into play if you are Allies and capture a Sub Pen and want to spawn Submarines at your home Shipyard (or vice versa). However since Uzbekistan can produce both Destroyer and Submarine from its Sub Pen this change needed to happen (I didn't want to change BuildAtProductionType on the units themselves).

3) This is to give ships docked in their harbour a better chance to survive during an attack. For example in a 1v1 situation a Destroyer can repair the damage done by a Submarine before its next torpedo is launched. It'll also make docked units able to survive air raids better. Remember that it's an expensive affair though and can't be kept up forever unless you earn a ton of credits per minute. Also, same as with Service Depot, it now becomes more viable to send ships back to repair instead of (or in addition to) building new ones since repairing is quick.

4) Wood armor actually makes Shipyard and Sub Pen stronger, especially vs the naval units themselves (they all have reworked damage).

5) Torpedoes can be fired 7.5 cells away from their target, meaning the Submarines need to be within detection range when attacking the structure. This is needed because Submarines are permanently submerged in overhaul, even when firing.

6) Most of what surrounds the naval structure will be open water, this change makes it so that the structure might be able to see something else other than water. It also buffs positioning the naval structure close to the shore since you'll gain some extra vision on land (generally structures gives a lot less vision in overhaul so using Shipyard/Sub Pen for scouting purposes is not such a bad idea, could be useful for noticing air attacks a bit earlier). Note that Submarines can still be outside the vision of the structure when they are firing their torpedoes at it, even if they are inside its cloak detection radius.

7) This makes placing the naval structure less of a bother, you just need to make sure the circle from the Conn Yard is covering water and you are good to go with early naval units. No need to make buffer buildings. This is particularly helpful for the AI when it is trying to make a naval structure.

Sidenote: The Allied Spy can infiltrate Sub Pen (or Shipyard) to gain access to the Sonar Pulse ability, which detects submarines in a target area. However since most of the time the structure is built off-shore this becomes impossible in vanilla -- spies can't swim! So in overhaul it's possible to enter the Construction Yard in order to gain the same effect as the Spy would get from entering a Sub Pen/Shipyard (this is described in the Spy description). In addition to the Sonar Pulse ability all produced naval units from then on will be promoted one rank automatically, I think the Sonar Pulse ability on its own was not good enough for any player to spend its Spy on.
Attachments
shipyard_subpen.png
shipyard_subpen.png (8.5 KiB) Viewed 2605 times

User avatar
SoScared
Posts: 1115
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Oslo
Contact:

Post by SoScared » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:10 pm

Once you've covered it all you might want to consider putting this info on a page or file with an index. Browsing the thread or following a discussion is very inconvenient with 8 full pages full of documentation.

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:45 am

SoScared wrote: Once you've covered it all you might want to consider putting this info on a page or file with an index. Browsing the thread or following a discussion is very inconvenient with 8 full pages full of documentation.
If the consensus on the upcoming stream is positive I'll consider doing that. Even though it would be mostly copy-pasting I'm starting to get a bit stretched out for spare time. :drunk: I hope to be able to wrap up most explanations if not everything before Monday night.

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:46 am

Transport

1) Health from 350 to 400, armor from heavy to light.
2) Cost from 700 to 400, build time from 17 sec to 9 sec.
3) Movement speed from 113 to 83, turn speed from 10 to 255.
4) Line-of sight from 6 cells to 2.75 cells.
5) Now able to carry 8 infantry or 2 normal vehicles or 1 normal vehicle + 4 infantry or 1 big vehicle + 2 infantry. Just for the record: Used to be 5 of any units.
6) Increased visual size by 50%.

Motivations:

1) This makes it sink after 4 Torpedoes or 9 attacks from a Destroyer and it survives 1 full Tesla Coil attack. In vanilla it dies from 2 Torpedoes or 6 Destroyer attacks (also survives 1 full Tesla Coil attack). I want the Transport to also fit the role of "damage sponge" in overhaul's complete naval rework.

Changing the armor from heavy to light made it easier for me to balance against the other naval units, now it has same armor type as submarines and aerial units (the three ship types all have heavy armor). It also makes it generally more vulnerable against most land/sky attacks in the game.

2) This makes the Transport cheap and fast to produce, it's just a defenceless floatation device after all. Helps to make it plausible as a "damage sponge" and makes mass vehicle transport feasible (see point 5).

Having to dedicate less resources for the transport itself means you can produce the units that are actually going to be transported quicker, so the naval transport becomes a more attractive strategic option.

3) It's now slightly faster than a Torpedo and slightly slower than a Destroyer. This means if a bit longer transport duration, giving the enemy extra time to do something if he discovers it. In return it has become more agile on the waters (helps to still dodge torpedoes since they turn better now).

4) If you decide to transport without any accompanying ships the vessel is much more vulnerable now. This also prevents you from producing it just as a scout (as many do with Chinook in vanilla at the moment).

5) Expended capacity for infantry to the same as Chinook. However, gone are the days of unloading 5 Mammoth Tanks all from the same transport, for space now matters. A Ore Truck, Mammoth Tank, MCV and MAD Tank now need a dedicated transport. This is part of why the transport got simpler to produce (see point 2).

Not only is this more realistic (if that matters) but it requires more from you if you want to execute a really strong sneak attack (instead of going the old "1 click for instant 5 attacking Mammoth Tanks" you now have to consider logistics).

Meanwhile though it has been buffed for transporting infantry but that should be easier for a prepared player to deal with. With overhaul's wall changes (see page 1 in the thread) it shouldn't be too hard to block off a vulnerable spot. Watch out for 8 Flamethrowers coming to a beach near you!

6) This makes it look like a Mammoth Tank can actually fit on the Transport.

Btw, anyone else think that the name "Transport" is too generic? I'd love for it to be explicitly named something like "Water Transport" or "Naval Transport". :P (The icon can remain the same.)
Attachments
lsticon-0000.png
lsticon-0000.png (2.54 KiB) Viewed 2548 times

OMnom
Posts: 255
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:04 am

Post by OMnom » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:13 am

Fortnight wrote:
SoScared wrote: Once you've covered it all you might want to consider putting this info on a page or file with an index. Browsing the thread or following a discussion is very inconvenient with 8 full pages full of documentation.
If the consensus on the upcoming stream is positive I'll consider doing that. Even though it would be mostly copy-pasting I'm starting to get a bit stretched out for spare time. :drunk: I hope to be able to wrap up most explanations if not everything before Monday night.
I second SoS's opinion. If he were to stream your mod, he'd have to look through the entire thread to find what you changed... it'd be much easier if he could Ctrl+F on one document. It'd also make his stream a lot more informative and less "lemme look this up."

User avatar
jaZz_KCS
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:46 pm
Location: Bremen

Post by jaZz_KCS » Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:37 am

So many changes, so much to cover...

Yes, third'ed. Without a table of changes, featuring this on the stream would be a nightmare.
Image
RAGL -->Replay Archive<--

User avatar
SoScared
Posts: 1115
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Oslo
Contact:

Post by SoScared » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:07 pm

Streams for the most part are good to get overall impressions of things. With playtesting and the like I prefer to call it showcasing.

The stream will go fine I'm sure but as Omnom points out it's gonna be hard, if not impossible, to get to the nitty-gritty of things :D Regardless of how the stream goes all the info above should definitely go into a document.

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:02 pm

I understand how you guys think and I agree that doing a single CTRL+F on a huge page would be nice. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to make the forum display the whole thread all at once, that would have been a sweet feature! Not demanding for the server either since it's just text and would need to be done on-demand by individual users. @Sleipnir: *wink wink nudge nudge*

Unless the stream will go on for 12 hours I don't expect you to pause to read all the time though ;) so maybe for those few times when it's needed one of you that aren't playing could find the wanted post? Open all pages in their own tabs, use CTRL+TAB and Ctrl+V to quickly search on all of them. There's probably browser plugins out there to CTRL+F on all tabs at once btw.

I'm doing the final posts right now (I think I only have the navy units left) but I might throw together some kind of simple combination afterwards.
Last edited by Fortnight on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:03 pm

Submarine

1) Line-of-sight up from 6 to 9.5 cells.
2) Health down from 250 to 150.
3) Takes a moment to submerge (InitialDelay from 0 to 25).
4) Slightly larger detection of other submarines (from 4.0 to 4.5 cells).
5) Defaults to the stance "AttackAnything" instead of "HoldFire" for human players and "ReturnFire" for AI players.
[tab]Same stance for Gunboat, Destroyer and Cruiser, I'll just mention that here so I don't have to repeat it in their posts.
6) Now permanently submerged, even when attacking.
7) Torpedo attack range down from 9 to 7.5 cells.
8 ) No longer attacks in bursts of 2, instead fires 1 stronger torpedo.
9) Torpedo range up from 10.8 to 15 and it turns twice as good (HorizontalRateOfTurn from 1 to 2).
10) Torpedo damage is now single target.

Motivations:

1) I've reworked the vision system for all naval units, Submarines now work as a scout unit. It could be worth the trouble of building a Sub Pen just for the stealthy vision.

2) This makes them survive two torpedoes and (on average) two depth-charge attacks.

3) The added delay gives the enemy an opportunity to better notice that a submarine has been produced if they see the Sub Pen.

4) There are two detection groups for subs now, 4.5 and 3.0. The extra half cell isn't a big deal, subs still almost have to collide to detect each other, but it helps a little. The detection circle is mostly there so the player with the subs can tell whether or not a Gunboat sees them.

5) This mostly helps the AI, in vanilla you can sometimes (often?) stroll through their subs without any of them attacking.

6) One thing that's pretty strange in Red Alert is how the submarines have to surface in order to launch their submerged torpedoes. It was probably meant for balance initially but I think balance can still be achieved even while keeping them beneath the surface. Submarines are meant to be stealthy, to be able to take the enemy by surprise, and this allows them to be exactly that.

Enemy players can still see incoming torpedoes so they can dodge them and puzzle together exactly where the attacking submarine is. However now you need to get there with depth charges, no longer can Destroyers use their missiles before getting close enough. It also makes Cruisers completely defenseless against submarines, which works better for balance.

I think most would agree that Allies has an edge on the water front, mostly since they can attack both land and water (and air). But it's also pretty hard for Soviet to enter waters that already have several Allied ships established. Making submarines stronger in the one domain where they can actually attack evens out the score and together with the increased line-of-sight give both sides just as useful naval units, just in different ways.

7) This means you need to be closer to your target before launching the attack. You will still be outside of detection but players that pay attention won't have to travel that long before your subs falls into his ships' detection circles. This promotes stealthy and sneaky gameplay with submarines, if you are sure the enemy player is busy elsewhere on the map it's time to move in with your subs to pick off his navy.

8 ) I tend to prefer strong single attacks rather than several weaker attacks. It adds the overkill element to the game but mainly removes a lot of clutter, both visually and sound-wise, which makes things becomes more clear. Especially if more than one submarine is attacking. The reload time has been adjusted so that the next torpedo is launched right after the previous one has hit its target, assuming firing from max range (7.5 cells) and that the target isn't moving.

9) This makes dodging torpedo more of an effort. It is still somewhat easy but in vanilla all you had to do was move your ship slightly to the side or move it back a little bit. In overhaul together with the closer sub attack position (see point 7) you now have to retreat much further back to outrun the torpedo or you have to put a bit more effort into side-stepping it if you wish to go on the offense. I believe this change is needed because avoiding torpedos in vanilla is so easy that gives Allies too big of an edge on the navy side due to being able to attack land as well with their ships.

10) In vanilla there was quite a lot of splash damage in torpedoes, if two ships are close to each other they will both feel the explosion. In overhaul ship B doesn't feel the hole created in ship A's hull. This also helps balancing since you don't have to think about situations where ships are spread out compared to where they are lumped together (in such a case either the torpedo would become effective against close ships and inadequate against single ships or the other way around).

Torpedoes required to destroy a...
[tab]...500 credits Gunboat: 1
[tab]...2000 credits Missile Submarine: 1
[tab]...1000 credits Destroyer: 2
[tab]...950 credits Submarine: 2
[tab]...4000 credits Nuclear Submarine: 3
[tab]...400 credits Transport: 4
[tab]...2500 credits Cruiser: 5
[tab]...1000 credits Shipyard: 22
[tab]...800 credits Sub Pen: 22

The Shipyard and Sub Pen are intentionally more tanky now to make it possible for a player to contest waters already dominated by another player. It takes time to produce naval units so it must take time to destroy the naval structures. With only one production facility we need 12.0 sec for a Gunboat and a whole 22.8 sec for a Submarine, units that likely will be picked off anyway if the structure is under attack (though naval repair has been boosted a lot to help with this problem, as well as the new "damage sponge" role of Transport).

Five Submarines still takes out a Shipyard or Sub Pen in about ~17 sec regardless if it is repairing or not so it remains hard to break into dominated waters, though not impossible. A Shipyard takes 24 sec to build and Sub Pen takes 19.2 sec so making several production buildings in order to reduce production time of naval units is also hard, unless those are built elsewhere in safer waters first (a good strategy because then you could prepare the first counter-unit and put it on hold at 99% done before placing the spawning structure in the contested waters).

In vanilla 4 Submarines can instantly destroy a Shipyard or Sub Pen with one attack burst. In overhaul 4 Submarines need ~20 sec to do the same, ~24 sec if the building is being repaired from the first received damage.
Attachments
ssicon-0000.png
ssicon-0000.png (2.23 KiB) Viewed 2451 times
Last edited by Fortnight on Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:33 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Fortnight
Posts: 194
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:09 pm

Post by Fortnight » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:01 am

Missile Submarine

1) Reworked the attack completely, now launches a single slow-moving homing missile from very far away instead of two non-seeking rockets at medium speed and pretty far range.
2) Now very vulnerable, HP down from 400 to just 90. Self-repairs quickly up to 100% HP.
3) Movement speed up from 42 to 71, turn speed up from 3 to 4. Now exactly the same as a regular Submarine.
4) Line-of-sight down from 6 cells to 4 cells. Detection of other submarines down from 4 cells to 3 cells.
5) Takes a little while to submerge for the first time (InitialDelay from 0 to 25).
6) The missile is launched two seconds after the submarine has gone up to the surface.
7) Takes a whole lot longer to resubmerge after surfacing (CloakDelay from 100 to 350).

Motivations:

1) This changes the unit from bombardment to being pin-point accurate. I did this not only because the Missile Sub was intruding on the "uniqueness" of the Cruiser role as the prime bombardment unit in the game but also because to be honest I'm not a fan of missiles that are not homing... It works for V2 because that's a big rocket but to give non-tracking missiles to a Missile Sub, it's weird.

Instead of changing the current weapon's projectile to ballistics and renaming the unit to "Catapult Sub" :drunk: ;) I did some testing with a more exclusive type of missile and in the end I think the unit turned out better because of it. The projectile is so slow-moving that it won't really work against moving aircraft but it exceeds against sneak attacks on any idle unit. Being sneaky is just what I want a submarine to be. The new missile has its own distinct launch sound, which should warn alert enemy players about what is about to happen.

In overhaul the sub has just one armament instead of two (has one for air and one for ground in vanilla). So there's no problem with being able to fire at the ground and then immediately fire at the air (though that could be solved in vanilla with an ammo pool that is self-reloading). But isn't it a little odd that the air attack is homing while the ground attack is not?

Vanilla's Missile Sub is better against moving aircrafts (if it manages to point towards them so it can launch) but overhaul's Missile Sub is more effective against idle groups of them. Personally I don't think Soviet really need a strong naval air defense, especially in overhaul where the regular Submarines stay submerged during attacks. I get that vanilla's Missile Sub is intended to work a bit like Destroyer in their anti-air capabilities, though Soviet has Mobile Flak and I think good anti-air is Allies "thing" - if that makes sense? What I mean is the two sides don't need to perfectly represent each other's benefits in all matters.

2) This balances against its new powerful weapon. The Missile Sub should not be close enough so that an enemy can attack back. Keep it secret, keep it safe.

The repair is so that if you actually manage to escape any close-call situations the sub will be able to resubmerge again after a while (can't submerge at red HP). It also makes it less vulnerable against single units while surfaced, thanks to self-repair the Missile Sub takes 5 attacks from 1 Gunboat and 3 attacks from 1 Destroyer (buying it extra time to resubmerge or maybe even defend itself). It will immediately die against 4 Gunboats or 2 Destroyers though.

3) I've said it before but nothing matters as much as movement speed in a RTS game, vanilla's 42 is crippling. Especially if you think about the maps that have water around the edges and land in the middle. I don't think vanilla Missile Sub is so strong that it deserves to be the slowest unit to deploy in the game, as a result nobody produces it. A regular sub is already slow enough, so that's how it is in overhaul. Its long submerge delay, attack delay and low HP is enough to balance its new armament.

4) The Missile Sub falls into the lesser group when it comes to both sub detection and vision. It needs support to be able to use its weapon, either by another Submarine scouting next to the shore or by your land troops.

5) Same as for the standard submarine, it gives the enemy player a chance to see what has been produced if he has vision over the Sub Pen.

6) This gives the enemy a window of opportunity to destroy the sub before it attacks and removes the possibility to attack next to a guarded beach (four Rocket Soldiers is enough to instantly kill the Missile Sub as soon as it shows itself).

7) From surfacing it takes 16 seconds before the sub is under water again (2 sec due to the attack delay and 14 sec due to the cloak delay). This is why it's important to be smart about the usage of the unit, if you aren't sneaky the enemy has a lot of time to send air units your way.

The unit will not submerge between shots btw (unless you micromanage it). The reload time is a whopping 27 seconds and the 14 sec cloak delay starts only when the sub stops trying to attack, this means a long potential exposure time without micro (remember it only stops trying to attack once the target is dead and it takes ~9.5 sec for the slow missile to reach its target at max range, more if the target is moving). Since buildings can repair a lot in 27 sec you see how the Missile Sub works best in expensive groups that can burst down targets with a single combined attack.

So why all these delays and slow moving missiles? It's to balance the 20 cell attack range and 25 cell follow range of the missile. By comparison the Cruiser has an attack range of 16 cells. It of course has its own strengths while even further range and better accuracy is the Missile Sub's business.

The pin-point accuracy is so pin-point that it will only kill 1 infantry in a group of 5. So the attack is best spent on large strategic targets, preferably immobile ones to make sure they will hit. However, against aircraft its a different story. A single missile is capable of taking out a group of air units all at once, even when exploding nearby them. Even when exploding on the ground, so you can kill two (or more) birds with one stone by targeting the building below the idle aircrafts.

Of course if the enemy notice any incoming missile(s) it's easy for him to dodge them. There should even be enough time to sell off the targeted building if needed. Also, since the Missile Sub's missiles are now homing it's possible to counter them by building a Radar Jammer if you are playing an Allied faction.

Damage examples, missiles it takes to destroy...
[tab]...any infantry: 1
[tab]...any aircraft: 1
[tab]...any defense structure: 2

[tab]...Transport (naval): 2
[tab]...Gunboat: 1
[tab]...Destroyer: 2
[tab]...Cruiser: 5
[tab]...Sub Pen / Shipyard: 4

[tab]...V2 Rocket: 1
[tab]...Light Tank: 1
[tab]...Medium Tank: 2
[tab]...Heavy Tank: 3
[tab]...Mammoth Tank: 4
[tab]...MAD Tank (undeployed): 5
[tab]...Ore Truck: 3
[tab]...MCV: 3

[tab]...Power Plant: 2
[tab]...Advanced Power Plant: 3
[tab]...Tech Center: 3
[tab]...Missile Silo: 4
[tab]...War Factory: 6
[tab]...Construction Yard: 6

These numbers are if the attacks happens all at once, a single Missile Sub would for example need 3 attacks to destroy a Power Plant if it is repairing. Likewise a Missile Submarine needs 14 attacks to destroy a repairing Construction Yard by itself. The six Missile Subs needed to perform a sufficient burst attack is an investment of 12 thousand credits (not to mention actual production time and what's needed to reach max tech level) and they form a very vulnerable group, especially in overhaul where Depth Charges has been buffed.
Attachments
msubicon-0000.png
msubicon-0000.png (2.3 KiB) Viewed 2430 times

Post Reply