Red Alert Balance Discussion [Release-20160508]

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Discussion about the game and its default mods.

What do you think of the current Red Alert balance?

Perfect!
2
6%
Almost perfect!
13
41%
Still a bit to be done!
14
44%
A lot still to be done!
1
3%
Really Imbalanced!
2
6%
 
Total votes: 32

Murto the Ray
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Red Alert Balance Discussion [Release-20160508]

Post by Murto the Ray » Mon May 23, 2016 3:38 pm

Firstly i'd like to thank the developers for the new release, they've done a great job. A few small balance changes came with the release:
  • New GPS Satellite Icons
  • Increase in Light Tank vision and turn rate (4 to 5 and 5 to 7 respectively)
  • Increase in Minelayer HP from 100 to 150
  • British Spy returns minimum of 250 (was 500)
  • Mammoth Tanks can crush walls
  • Nukes damage submerged submarines
  • Fake Power Plants added to France
In my opinion these were well thought out and a step in the right direction.

There have already been several ideas thrown about for future balance and it makes sense to start discussion on these eary so that a consensus can be made before the next release or even playtests.
  • Artillery range nerf: http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/view ... sc&start=0 to discourage them being used as a primary component in armies
  • Longbow/Mig general buff (cost, damage, ammo) as they are hardly used
  • Shock Trooper health nerf (60 to 45) to make their counters more effective
  • Mammoth Tank speed buff (42 to 50) as they are currently too slow to be used effectively
  • Fake Service depot to be added to France to allow more options and make France great again!
I think that the above are all fair although the Mig/Longbow buff needs quite some discussion to come to a conclusion as the direction of buffing them is unagreed on. Shock troopers are in a similiar position although SoScared made a good agument here: http://www.sleipnirstuff.com/forum/view ... 82&t=19566

Something else i think needs to be looked at is the map pool. There have been a lot of big changes to it recently but i think its possible that more could be done. It important that maps allow many possible styles of play to be viable (such as teching, mass army, mass expansion, mixes of the previous) which isnt currently provided by all maps in the pool. In my experience one of the maps that encompasses this well (although on a small scale) is the cold front 1v1 map. It has expansion positions close and farther away from the spawn positions and it has enough chokes and open positions that a teching player can hold off a very aggressive player. but armies still retain value against players who choose to go for many expansions.

Discuss balance below and remember to vote in the poll! 8)
Last edited by Murto the Ray on Mon May 23, 2016 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

klaas
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Post by klaas » Mon May 23, 2016 3:58 pm

I think these changes could all work as intended, except the shock trooper health nerf.

Regarding the shockies, I do think they are too powerful ATM. An army with mostly shocktroopers is effective against everything. A better nerf than reducing the HP would be ff their damage against heavy armor is reduced. This way they will remain effective vs. infantry, light armor and buildings, however now they can be countered by tanks. At the same time, tanks are poor at killing them, so you'd need to use them in combination with a unit that can actually kill them, like rifleman, to counter shockies. This will keep the shock troopers usefull, but makes it a poor strategy to build just shocktroopers and nothing else.

Reducing their HP can cause a all or nothing effect, where shockies are too weak or too powerful.

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The_Hunter
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Post by The_Hunter » Wed May 25, 2016 9:18 pm

There was a discussion in Soscared latest stream that brought up the point of Camo Pillboxes overlapping with the basic ones.

I brought up the idea of perhaps separating them from the main tech tree and making them unique to to a sub faction which was generally well received as far as suggestions go.

Most people agreed it would have been nice if France has unique access to Camo Pillboxes.
Last edited by The_Hunter on Wed May 25, 2016 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Wed May 25, 2016 9:30 pm

The_Hunter wrote: -Snip-
Makes sense since france's theme is deception^^

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r34ch
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Post by r34ch » Wed May 25, 2016 10:02 pm

The_Hunter wrote: France has unique access to Camo Pillboxes.
+1

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared » Wed May 25, 2016 10:37 pm

Additional recent suggestions:
  • Soviet Flame Tower, increased projectile speed from 204 to 250
  • Concrete walls, 300HP down from 500HP.
  • Fence/Sandbags, 150HP down from 300HP
  • Alter damage vs Concrete:
    Tesla weapons - 50% from 100%
    Rocket soldier - 50% from 20%
    Flame thrower - 20% from 50%
    Flame tower - 20% from 50%
The Flame Tower projectile speed increase makes it so that it can have a better shot against sniping the now popular engi drop (compared to the pillbox hit-scan), and slightly faster hits against infantry blob attacks.

The Concrete walls nerf , I think, should be self explanatory. Currently, once it's up, it's not coming down. The concrete wall should be effective at holding up advances, not shut down parts of the map completely. The specific changes mentioned here are values that naturally needs more testing, but looks promising so far . Values originated from Frame Limiters modded map: http://resource.openra.net/maps/14163/

  • Light tanks, increase burst delay x2, increase damage x2
This wouldn't change it's effectiveness but will make the shots appear less spammy.



And the mind blow suggestion of the month (kudos to The Hunter):
  • Give Camo. Pillbox exclusively to France + Camo.Pillbox, cost $500 down from $600, HP 400 down from 600.
This would accomplish multiple things. Firstly, build up France's image as the deception faction. The current consensus seem to be that it's the Allies' turn to develop their factions into something more unique and attractive. Secondly it's gonna undo the redundancy of the regular pillbox. Lastly it slightly nerfs the cost efficiency of the camo.pillbox, making the extra cost address the cloaking ability. The $600 for 600HP + cloak is simply to generous of a deal.

zinc
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Re: Red Alert Balance Discussion [Release-20160508]

Post by zinc » Thu May 26, 2016 1:09 pm

Artillery range nerf:
I don't agree with this one really. If you aren't a fan of artillary, then just play more open maps where artillary by itself isn't going to work.

Longbow/Mig general buff (cost, damage, ammo) as they are hardly used
Yep. Maybe time to experiment with anti-air on Migs.
Shock Trooper health nerf (60 to 45) to make their counters more effective
I don't really see the need for this. They were already reduced from 100 to 60. Since then, they aren't used half as much, and I think that suggests that they aren't overpowered. From games I have played I have been able to counter them OK. They aren't the wrecking ball they used to be. If certain players are getting raped by them, then I suspect that they are just up against a better player and they have given them too much space to produce them.

Mammoth Tank speed buff (42 to 50) as they are currently too slow to be used effectively
I agree that this should be tried. Or maybe even faster??

Another idea: make them capable of being troop transports? So 10 or 12 troops in them? Move them forward with iron curtain and then release the troops...
]Fake Service depot to be added to France to allow more options and make France great again!
Fine. Although a second fake nuke may help more...

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r34ch
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Re: Red Alert Balance Discussion [Release-20160508]

Post by r34ch » Thu May 26, 2016 8:52 pm

SoScared wrote: Additional recent suggestions
I like the idea of a lot of these suggestions, I think a playtest would be good with these.
Murto the Ray wrote: Mammoth Tank speed buff (42 to 50) as they are currently too slow to be used effectively
Personally though if the mammoth needs yet another buff, I would like to see how they play with a substantial HP buff along with a substantial RoF nerf to balance. Currently there are no heavy damage soaking units late game and this iconic beast would be an ideal candidate.

Increasing the speed again I feel would make it a higher tier heavy tank with AA, giving little incentive to switch back to heavy tank production once teched up. If the mammoths role did change to become a heavy damage soaker, the heavy tank could remain a somewhat viable choice late game as more maneuverable, higher DPS light damage soaker.

zinc
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Re: Red Alert Balance Discussion [Release-20160508]

Post by zinc » Sat May 28, 2016 10:23 am

zinc wrote: Another idea: make them capable of being troop transports? So 10 or 12 troops in them? Move them forward with iron curtain and then release the troops...
A couple of other things you could try with mammoths (maybe just one faction)--

Flame mammoths -- as seen in one of the expansion pack missions

Or...

As the chrono tanks have their own limited chrono ability, maybe mammoths could have their own individual iron curtains. Not as good (long lasting) as the proper thing, and maybe 3 minutes to recharge.

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SoScared
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Post by SoScared » Sat May 28, 2016 11:35 pm

Idea:

German Medium Tank:
Cost $1050 (normal 850)
Increased damage vs Heavy Armor (vs other tanks and defensive structures)
Visually, slightly longer barrel

German Light Tank:
Cost $800 (normal 700)
Slight increased damage vs Heavy Armor + Light Armor (vs other tanks and defensive structures)
Visually, slightly stronger barrel (e.g. TD Light Tank)

So imagine Germany being Allies' tank faction. RA2 had the idea with the German Tank Destroyer, which sucked, but made me think to use it as an excuse for a German-specific faction strength in RA. This would make Germany a choice for players who wants to invest heavier on the battlefield vs other armies and to move in on fortified positions.

The German Medium and Light tank would replace the normal tanks.

Hecthor Doomhammer
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Post by Hecthor Doomhammer » Sun May 29, 2016 12:58 am

I agree on the change to the Camo Pillbox, moving it as France only

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Norman_
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Post by Norman_ » Sun May 29, 2016 12:01 pm

just played around with missile subs aa weapon on one of the new playtest maps - its not possible to hit airunits - only helis if a player dont pay attention, and even then, because of its slow reload time and speed, helis have no problem to just fly away and avoid their missiles. i imagine using aa missiles with more speed, faster reload time, but more or less low damage and a good range limit could be worth testing - to be able to hit airunits (even migs?) but still give them all a chance to escape/survive. (% stealth surprise advantage) or even better: forget the sub and try to add some good but not op mig aa missiles (instead of just adding validtarget: air to normal mavericks) for great air-air fights, which would be just a great addition to current gameplay 8)
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epice
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Post by epice » Sun May 29, 2016 1:43 pm

Needs work, there are a handful of extremely effective "strategies" that every game defaults to and it makes not not very fun.

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Marn
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Post by Marn » Sun May 29, 2016 2:55 pm

Norman_ wrote: forget the sub and try to add some good but not op mig aa missiles (instead of just adding validtarget: air to normal mavericks) for great air-air fights, which would be just a great addition to current gameplay 8)
Couldn't agree more. Allied longbows can shoot air along with destroyers, while soviets have a flack track aaaand.... that's it.... just flack track... (aside from rocket infantry that both factions share) There is of course the argument that allies get destroyers only on naval maps but I honestly think that a fighter jet that can shoot down air make a heck of a lot more sense than longbows. From my testing even if migs get aa missiles they are still at a disadvantage to longbows, because a bunch of longbows can just spin 180 after migs made their pass and return fire with a second salvo before migs can make a turn for the second pass. (at least with the current reload rate) I think this option should be looked at a bit more imo.

lucassss
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Post by lucassss » Sun May 29, 2016 5:11 pm

Reposting my mad tank suggestion:
I have a more radical idea for MAD tank. How about the following:

1) MAD tank doesn't explode, it just shakes the earth until it is undeployed
2) Earth shaking paralyses buildings (like engineer but without taking over them), also causing gradual damage.
3) Earth shaking disables defenses.
4) Earth shaking causes infantry to become prone.

Explanation for the new features:

1 - I think this unit should be different from the demo truck.
2 - I'm not sure about, but it fits with the original theme of the unit
3 - presents an interesting way to handle players who build too much defense (and can also combine with airplanes or v2).
4 - gives the soviets an additional way to handle infantary, which is something they currently lack.

Note that it is possible that giving all 4 properties to the MAD tank would make it too strong, so maybe a subset (1 and 4, 1 and 3, 3 and 4) is better.

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