Dune 2000 mod - what's to be done with it? - discussion

[SoScared]

I'm looking at the D2K mod from an outsider's point of view: I never played the original and I didn't really try it on until the concrete and worms was added. I did play TONS of Dune 2 back in the day tho. So I'm hoping to see D2K grow, much like TD has done lately.

First impression as a nub looking at the game, the building tab is just too fucking big. The tech tree stretches on forever (impression) and if you actually complete it, chances are you are playing with the debug menu. A defensive structure tab is desperately needed and perhaps concrete slabs could be put in it as well. Concrete slabs should speed up unit movement significantly (perhaps like roads in ra mod). You loose building HP without concrete but I feel there's little incentive (boring) to build concrete when you want a nice quick game.

I feel like the factions need to be further diversified. I noticed the difference on elite units and a few units here and there but it's 'drowning' in the monolithic tech tree. Defense structures, upgrades are also the same. I don't have any ideas on what could be done with it, I just feel like it's necessary for me to want to get into the mod.

Worms are OP but I think that's already discussed.

Like a said, I'm giving my impressions as someone who doesn't have a relationship with the original or the mod. Neither did I with command & conquer (TD) but I'm really enjoying the mod as it as it is today.

[AoAGeneral1]

I never played the original. But I did play a bit of it when it came to OpenRA. The #1 concern is balance.

Tanks for Atriedes has increased range. Harkonnen have tougher armor. Ordos has faster tanks. The trikes are also different for Ordos because they are meant for quick strikes like Nod. This glaring problem made the trikes way to strong compared to any other faction because Ordos trikes do more damage. Which means they became the perfect counter to spice collectors, infantry, and even some armored vehicles. (Yes even Harkonnen tanks.)

The concrete slabs are not required except for the power plants so you can get as much power out of them as possible. Otherwise it slows your build time down if you place slabs down. If the building constantly loss health without slabs then that can fix that issue.

Don't bother making infantry in D2K.

Here is a video that was a normal strategy for D2K games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_VCAaJ_qhA

[r34ch]

A defensive structure tab is desperately needed and perhaps concrete slabs could be put in it as well.

Completely agree with this.

I can't comment further on the MP balance but I do want to highlight one issue I have, and that is disappearing vehicles. In the TD and RA mod, when a vehicle dies that doesn't leave a husk it dies in a largish explosion - enough to cover most of the unit.

In D2k a tiny transparent explosion plays and the unit just abruptly disappears. I think more light units in D2k should leave burning husks - just perhaps not as long as heavier vehicles.

Also the lack of superweapon countdown visuals once activated is pretty annoying. And little things like neutral carry-alls setting down crates instead of the crates just spawning.

Polish can mean a lot for a port of an old game.

[SMIFFGIG]

Has there been any discussion of maybe the developers building a relationship with the D2k community (assuming there still is one). In much the same way the other two mods have with PPMSite and CnCNet(although I understand the relationship with the latter is not great).


I guess this is also dependent on whether the Dune2k is going for a remake or a 're-imagination' Like the other two mods?

[Prince Blueblood]

I said that we should remove concrete altogether from Dune2k. I used to work with concrete, but then I get roflstomped by those who didn't build concrete

[Sleipnir]

We have attempted to build a relationship with the FED2k community, but there doesn't seem to be any interest on their part.

Discussion of the current balance is relatively moot at this stage because we are in the process of transforming D2K to more closely resemble the balance and gameplay of the original game. Once that is completed we can then evolve the mod over time to address its unique gameplay / balance issues, instead of white-washing it (red-washing?) with the RA mod influence.

[Canavusbis]

A defensive structure tab is desperately needed and perhaps concrete slabs could be put in it as well.

Completely agree with this.

I can't comment further on the MP balance but I do want to highlight one issue I have, and that is disappearing vehicles. In the TD and RA mod, when a vehicle dies that doesn't leave a husk it dies in a largish explosion - enough to cover most of the unit.

In D2k a tiny transparent explosion plays and the unit just abruptly disappears. I think more light units in D2k should leave burning husks - just perhaps not as long as heavier vehicles.

Also the lack of superweapon countdown visuals once activated is pretty annoying. And little things like neutral carry-alls setting down crates instead of the crates just spawning.

Polish can mean a lot for a port of an old game.

I disagree with most these points. D2K should have a completely different feel from the other two, and superweapons were not ever meant to be large, destructive gamechangers as they are in C&C and RA (which is why the countdown doesn't make much sense). Really, they were meant to be minor support powers to aid with scouting (fremen) or destruction (saboteur and deathhand). I'm not a fan of neutral carryalls dropping crates either.

I do agree that the explosions could be better. We aren't using the original explosions, which were much bigger and much more visible.

[lazygecko]

The lack of concrete actually taking away health from buildings is a type of design that just feels annoying and punishing to the player. I think there are ways of achieving basically the same function but instead having a positive spin on it. Like, maybe buildings by default just have less health/armor but putting them on concrete gives them a stat bonus. It's basically the same principle as going from punishing players by reducing exp rate after extended sessions in MMOs, to instead accumulating a bonus modifier while you are logged out from the game. You're accomplishing the same goal but with a rewarding incentive rather than something with negative connotations.

[SoScared]

Discussion of the current balance is relatively moot at this stage because we are in the process of transforming D2K to more closely resemble the balance and gameplay of the original game. Once that is completed we can then evolve the mod over time to address its unique gameplay / balance issues, instead of white-washing it (red-washing?) with the RA mod influence.

Sounds reasonable. I didn't know the mod was still in process this way. Would you however consider to add a defensive structures' tab before you were satisfied with the transformation? That would make the mod way more playable right off the bat.

As for the discussion around concrete, firstly the mod wouldn't be playable for me without it. As for its usefulness I think just to be able to build them separately from the buildings tab would solve that. While you main structures are building you can plan ahead with the concrete. In Dune 2 concrete also functioned as a "highway" for your tanks and infantry so I'm sure that feature would make it a lot more appealing.

Speaking of Dune 2 I really hope it makes it way into OpenRA one day. Looks like it's getting there: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/3274

[r34ch]

superweapons were not ever meant to be large, destructive gamechangers as they are in C&C and RA

I never implied they should be (they never were in the original C&Cs either).

All support powers in the other mods have this nice feature, I don't see how this cosmetic change would change the feel of the D2k mod any more than the actual gameplay changes of multi queuing or husks.

[abcdefg30]

Just throwing an idea in (regarding the neutral carryall with the crates):
What if sandworms would (only on sand terrain ofc) spit crates out?

[r34ch]

Just throwing an idea in (regarding the neutral carryall with the crates):
What if sandworms would (only on sand terrain ofc) spit crates out?

I love the idea! Except instead of a crate, why not the (non burning) husk of the previous vehicle they just ate?

[SoScared]

I had a couple of good games on D2K today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfoRznIOAKI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ulB4_eTQ4

I've got to take back some of what I had to say on the factions being too similar. The differences makes itself well noticed already in the mid-game and by a lot in the late-game. I think it's mostly the big build tab that initially make'em look indistinguishable.

[JOo]

https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/10385

paul wrote some code for the trail ... and i did a couple of frames for the needed artwork ...
so we have the worm "fully" implemented now ... its superclose to the original

not many people have seen it yet ...

and im really happy about the polishing on d2k , also the new re-balance in 1224 (close to the original) makes d2k way more enjoyable and different from RA and TD and gives a bit of a more nostalgic gameplay
... thx to reaperrr

[Graion Dilach]

and im really happy about the polishing on d2k , also the new re-balance in 1224 (close to the original) makes d2k way more enjoyable and different from RA and TD and gives a bit of a more nostalgic gameplay
... thx to OmegaBolt

FTFY. Bolt did the most, but his PR ended up too big to be taken at once, so reaperr split it up.