Lets discuss Shock Troopers (Red Alert)

[AoAGeneral1]

Balancing a unit based on a map can be extremely hard to do. It is best to balance the unit by basics. IE: Unit vs other unit. Unit vs other unit + combination.

Keeping in mind as well they fixed the shroud targeting (With the exception of turret locking IE: Flak Trucks) in the playtest. So targeted enemies are lost when out of sight range.

[Prince Blueblood]

Balancing a unit based on a map can be extremely hard to do. It is best to balance the unit by basics. IE: Unit vs other unit. Unit vs other unit + combination.

Keeping in mind as well they fixed the shroud targeting (With the exception of turret locking IE: Flak Trucks) in the playtest. So targeted enemies are lost when out of sight range.

Oh well, so the hind stop to barrage the poor flak truck when he tries to move out to the fog?

Alright then, this means a lot for the poor little flakies

But still, it's almost a given in any naval map, Soviet is more likely to lose against Allies in Naval map, while all Soviet team will lose *BADLY* against all Allied team. Although mixed Soviet-Allied team will still win against all Allied or all Soviet team (because to be frank, Submarines is more like niche dedicated anti naval unit, and missile sub definitely need protection from air)

... And it was a bit tedious to remember to manually set your submarines into Attack everything or at least Defend stance, since they are set to be passive by default. Setting the *Normal* torpedo armed submarines to be aggressive by default will definitely means a lot when you need to macro your forces.

Or at least, give the Soviets air-to-air unit if they are still supposed to be naval disadvantaged like original RA

[newwe]

Balancing a unit based on a map can be extremely hard to do. It is best to balance the unit by basics. IE: Unit vs other unit. Unit vs other unit + combination.

Keeping in mind as well they fixed the shroud targeting (With the exception of turret locking IE: Flak Trucks) in the playtest. So targeted enemies are lost when out of sight range.

Oh well, so the hind stop to barrage the poor flak truck when he tries to move out to the fog?

Alright then, this means a lot for the poor little flakies

But still, it's almost a given in any naval map, Soviet is more likely to lose against Allies in Naval map, while all Soviet team will lose *BADLY* against all Allied team. Although mixed Soviet-Allied team will still win against all Allied or all Soviet team (because to be frank, Submarines is more like niche dedicated anti naval unit, and missile sub definitely need protection from air)

... And it was a bit tedious to remember to manually set your submarines into Attack everything or at least Defend stance, since they are set to be passive by default. Setting the *Normal* torpedo armed submarines to be aggressive by default will definitely means a lot when you need to macro your forces.

Or at least, give the Soviets air-to-air unit if they are still supposed to be naval disadvantaged like original RA

IC and planes are super valuable on maps like bombardment islands, helis are useless as offensive units, and chrono is nice but pales in comparison to immunizing an abomb.

[Prince Blueblood]

IC and planes are super valuable on maps like bombardment islands, helis are useless as offensive units, and chrono is nice but pales in comparison to immunizing an abomb.

While indeed MIGs could be useful to take out enemy Nuke Silo quickly, the very fact that every competent players will spread longbows with attack anything order to keep any Soviet air incursions costly on the coast of his own island (which all Soviet team cannot hope to even scratch), is the very detterent of that.

Of course, the best team should have at least one competent Allied player to secure the outlier oil derricks and secure the airlanes, while the Soviet players could concentrate on pumping fuckton of Mammoths or MiGs to pound the enemy into submission (or if they like it blasty, five demo trucks)

[zinc]

It's a proven fact again and again in MP games, large group of flak deter hind, but isolated group of them is easy prey.

In my experience, they aren't as "easy" as you suggest.

[Prince Blueblood]

It's a proven fact again and again in MP games, large group of flak deter hind, but isolated group of them is easy prey.

In my experience, they aren't as "easy" as you suggest.

Of course, some skills in micro is necessary, to juggle that few flaks for chasing a hind and barraging them from the fog with another hind, but two hinds could take on 2 flak tracks and have easy win. Two hinds could take on three flak tracks with good micro.

*NOTE : Those Flak Trucks must be just left out to guard and the player have average micro skills. If the Flak Truck player has good micro and being aware with it, he could run back to the prepared line of rocket soldiers for trapping the hinds

[newwe]

It's a proven fact again and again in MP games, large group of flak deter hind, but isolated group of them is easy prey.

In my experience, they aren't as "easy" as you suggest.

Of course, some skills in micro is necessary, to juggle that few flaks for chasing a hind and barraging them from the fog with another hind, but two hinds could take on 2 flak tracks and have easy win. Two hinds could take on three flak tracks with good micro.

*NOTE : Those Flak Trucks must be just left out to guard and the player have average micro skills. If the Flak Truck player has good micro and being aware with it, he could run back to the prepared line of rocket soldiers for trapping the hinds

2v2, the hinds cost more than double the flak trucks, and only 1 hind survives with pretty low health.

2 hinds vs 3 flaks, I challenge you to show me how you use your "good micro" to kill the flaks, b/c it really isn't possible under any reasonable circumstances.

[noobmapmaker]

If they are driving or aiming at something else then you might take them out before they catch their aim on the hinds.

[newwe]

If they are driving or aiming at something else then you might take them out before they catch their aim on the hinds.

If a mammoth tank is shooting at something else a medium tank might be able to take it out...

[noobmapmaker]

But I mean when they're ordered by the player to divert fire from the original target to the hinds. Then it can take half a second to adjust their aim, maybe just enough for the hinds to take them out?

[newwe]

But I mean when they're ordered by the player to divert fire from the original target to the hinds. Then it can take half a second to adjust their aim, maybe just enough for the hinds to take them out?

Flaks are pretty fast at adjusting their aim, hinds on the other hand are pretty slow. Yes if the flaks are firing at something else and their owner doesn't quickly switch to the hinds they will get taken out, but my point was that that is the case for every unit, and not a good argument for hinds superiority.

[noobmapmaker]

True, was looking for good microing that would increase their strength. Making them attack when flaks are not paying attention (driving or busy shooting) is such a way. But its true that the latter is not really good micro.

[r34ch]

Let's say you have 3 flak trucks on an island plus a few rockets troops.

You think that's easy for a couple of hinds? Or how many would be needed?

Depends on sight and line of attack. One hind can wipe out all of those units (ammo withstanding) as it has been highlighted before that those units have less LoS than the hind.

Soviets need a sub or a yak to spot, or for the allied player to be clumsy and fly into the derricks LoS. Often allied players heli rush for engi rs chinook and a hind and dont realise subs are giving LoS which is why it seems to be easily countered by the soviet units on the island.

Inversely, for allies to counter all those units, they only need 1 destroyer to counter the yak, flaks and sub with good micro. Then the RS soldiers won't have enough LoS and the destroyer can slowly clean those up too. Thats obviously not a real MP scenario, but multiply the units and all you really need is for destroyers to win and soviets to loose the ability to retake or even destroy the derricks.

Soviets often cap the derricks first if they spen rush with engi and RS and spam subs as LoS arround those islands. However this forces soviets into a predictable opening strat for these maps while allies are free to choose viarious (naval, tech, heli) and can take back the islands when they choose while soviets cannot do the same.

[Murto the Ray]

Soviets often cap the derricks first if they spen rush with engi and RS and spam subs as LoS arround those islands. However this forces soviets into a predictable opening strat for these maps while allies are free to choose viarious (naval, tech, heli) and can take back the islands when they choose while soviets cannot do the same.

And then Soviet players catch onto this and start destroying the oil derricks instead of taking them, or taking them until a certain time where allies could possibly take it from them then destroy them.

[r34ch]

And then Soviet players catch onto this and start destroying the oil derricks instead of taking them

Very true but hard against good allied players. When an allied player pounces, its with destroyers and hind blob at the very least.

Good allied players will micro the destroyers around the islands avoiding the torps and by that manouver alone, will have heavy AA between your air force and the derricks. RS force firing on the derricks? Let the destroyers kill the flaks and a couple hinds to slaughter the RS.

I've never seen a soviet player in MP intentionally blow their derricks to stop capture but I guess if it catches on there is nothing stopping allies feigning a capture to watch you kill your eco with minimal losses themselves.

Anyways its not really the point I was ultimately stearing towards. Allies generally have various options in these situations because allied units are so multirole. Soviets are very specialised so once you commit to a strat, you have to see it through.

This is the reason I wish to see some soviet units buffed (yak better against inf to rival the death hind) and some holes in the soviet arsenal filled (dealing with air over water) so that in the case above (and more pointed out in the forums), soviets have more options than simply destroy thier own eco.

Anyways, for now nerf shockies. Do we have to make a pull request? I saw no RA unit balance changes in the full playtest changelist.