Lets discuss Shock Troopers (Red Alert)

[Prince Blueblood]

Final Change (I've uploaded the map after make sure the changes work, just wait) - Please please please, test the map with some games and share the replays so we can anaylze the game (and metagame) from valid MP battles (NOT AGAINST BOTS)

SOVIETS

Shock Troopers : The nerfed one, should be less massable (more expensive) and more vulnerable to anti infantry measures now
- Cost raised from 400 to 500
- HP reduced from 100 to 80

Heavy Tanks : Should be used far more in Soviet Army (instead of being practically non existent)
- Cost reduced from 1150 to 1000
- HP raised from 550 to 575

V2 Launcher: Outrange the arty, but significantly more expensive as well as slower
- Cost raised from 900 to 1150
- Speed reduced from 85 to 71
- SCUD range raised from 10 to 15
- SCUD min range raised from 3 to 4

Tesla Tank : Slight buff
- HP raised from 400 to 440

MAD Tank : Specific to Ukraine, give them boost so there's incentive to use them more
- Ukraine specific
- Prequisite reduced, now produceable from Weap + Fix, medium level tech
- Cost reduced from 2000 to 1750


ALLIES

Artillery : Nerfed a bit, should make Allies concentrate on tanks and more direct fighting a bit more, but artillery tricks should still works.
- Cost raised from 800 to 950

Light Tank : should stay the cheapest, spam-friendly tank to counter more soviet heavy tanks.
- Cost reduced from 700 to 650

[Prince Blueblood]

Alright here we go...
http://resource.openra.net/maps/3730/

The map is modified in this contains no Tech buildings (so economy are purely by harvesting ore), there's more ore in exchange though, and the purpose for this map is for testing so... yeah...

[FiveAces]

Coming from someone who plays both factions but is more successful with Soviets, if these changes were to go live, they would render Allies unplayable.

I'm fine with the Shock nerfs and Heavy/Tesla buffs, but the V2 changes are a terrible idea.
The Allies already field weaker direct combat units, so to compensate they need some way to deal with the Sov ground forces before they engage - that's where their range advantage comes into play.
If the Sovs were to get their hands on better artillery as well, there'd be no incentive left to pick Allies.
Besides, V2s are already very potent in their current state, you just need to micro them.

With 15 range, imagine how overpowered this becomes: Build a ground army plus 3 V2s, set up a siege and start sniping base defenses. Laugh as the Allies struggle to break the lines to kill your V2s because Sovs have the stronger army.

Plus, you misunderstood the role of light tanks: They are in no way suited for dealing with Sov armor. Their damage is flimsy, and their armor is paper-thin.
Just give it a try: It takes around 5-6 Lights to take out a Heavy.
They are mainly geared towards disruption (blocking buildings, drawing fire while on the move, crushing infantry).

[noobmapmaker]

Agree on the V2s. Their speed and range are fine as they are now and it makes them an interesting and fun unit to use. With the changes they become like artillery, more boring imo.

Oh and grenadiers should explode less often...

[Prince Blueblood]

Alright then, I'll upload a new version who basically did not the Artillery long range supremacy at all... tweaking Soviet Hijackers instead so they can be used to ambush the arty from behind or what...

Also decides against MAD Tank being fielded early, seismic toys aren't something that likely to be there without tech lab so... err... I decides to still limit them for Ukraine too and make them cheaper, but that's all (fair since Russian unique units also needs tech)

SOVIETS

Shock Troopers : The nerfed one, should be less massable (more expensive) and more vulnerable to anti infantry measures now
- Cost raised from 400 to 500
- HP reduced from 100 to 80

Heavy Tanks : Should be used far more in Soviet Army (instead of being practically non existent)
- Cost reduced from 1150 to 1000
- HP raised from 550 to 575

Tesla Tank : Slight buff
- HP raised from 400 to 440

MAD Tank : Specific to Ukraine, slight buff
- Ukraine specific
- Cost reduced from 2000 to 1750

Demolition Truck : Specific to Ukraine, buffed so no longer as expensive as nuke
- Cost reduced from 2500 to 2250
- HP raised from 50 to 80

Hijacker : Basically you can use them as if they are GLA hijacker now
- Cost raised from 500 to 600
- Speed raised from 56 to 63 (slight speed buff)
- Hijacker now cloaked when standing still

Migs just get Anti-Air capability
- Give Migs ability to attack air

ALLIES

Generally have their lightest vehicles being spam friendly now, yes Light Tanks and Jeeps did not counter Heavy Tanks and still not, but they are now available in swarms as screens.

Light Tank : should stay the cheapest, spam-friendly tank to counter more soviet heavy tanks.
- Cost reduced from 700 to 600

Ranger Jeep : Say "GLA Technical" now, plus now Allies partially regain their land Infantry mobility.
- Cost reduced from 500 to 450
- Infantry carrying capacity raised from 1 to 3

please wait until I fix the map and upload it (esp fixing how the hell MIGs could attack air without end up killing themselves in process)

[Prince Blueblood]

Alright, split MIG weapons into two and all is good as well as split MIG weapons into two with AA specific maverick tweaked so instead of getting suicide MIG we now have proper anti-air MIG

http://resource.openra.net/maps/3734/

Darn, why the ATTENTION thing appeared then?

[Canavusbis]

Alright, split MIG weapons into two and all is good as well as split MIG weapons into two with AA specific maverick tweaked so instead of getting suicide MIG we now have proper anti-air MIG

http://resource.openra.net/maps/3734/

Darn, why the ATTENTION thing appeared then?

I do not believe WithFacingSpriteBody is in the current release.

[r34ch]

I think too many drastic changes at once would really mess up balance. I think small incremental tweaks are needed. With that said, if shockies get nerfed I'm all for the heavy tank and hijacker buffs (as well as the yak tweak).

[AoAGeneral1]

I think too many drastic changes at once would really mess up balance. I think small incremental tweaks are needed. With that said, if shockies get nerfed I'm all for the heavy tank and hijacker buffs (as well as the yak tweak).

^^^^ Agreed on taking smaller steps. Its why in TD I haven't made a large amount of changes. New ideas posted but waiting for beta changes to affect release first.

You can also consider buffing/nerfing units by attack speed as well. IE: What if Heavy tanks shot a little faster? Compared to the medium tanks they seem to shoot at a faster rate which its damage per second is higher then the heavy? Trial and error and messing around in single player can not only bring interesting results but be alot of fun. (E3 shooting at 1 cycle.)

IE: The current rule set is medium tanks have 450 hp with 40 damage. reload cycle of 50. building at 21 seconds.
None: 20
Wood: 75
Light: 75
Concrete: 50

-------------------

Heavy tank has 550 hp 40 damage with a reload cycle of 70. building at 28 seconds.
None: 20
Wood: 75
Light: 75
Concrete: 50

In my opinion I think the error may just be the hp. Even the damage is the same (Exception of twin canons) with a slower build speed. but 21 vs 28 seconds isn't to bad in my opinion. I play RA very rarely so you guys would have alot more experience. So my opinion may be incorrect.

Edit: Ive also noticed flak trucks shoot outside of their own range and into the fog of war which enables them to outrange E3.

[Prince Blueblood]

And literally nobody in unmodded map use heavy tanks, except three or four at entire game for a very specialized tanking duty (against pillbox, flamer, or a lot of rifle infantry)

Long story short, Soviet heavy tank are mostly unused and often their best use is still circumstantial at best.

Flak Truck is still far better at screening the main soviet infantry and countering the artilleries, as they had only $600 price tag while they are both fast like hell (gotta go fast), have good vision range to spot things up (for V2!), and could swat annoying helis out of the sky, esp in great numbers (although they will lose in 1 vs 1).

So yeah, we need an official heavy tank buffs, so they are at least worthy to be used for main battle duties. Current $1150 price tag with rather pathetic health for it's pricing and they still get lost against medium tank of the same cost (!) especially when there's supports from infantry as well as being less manouverable on the field.

Rant over, I simply love my swarm of flak trucks... while they do act as more or less expendable screening force, they done well to protect the shockies ball from getting pounded to death by artilleries...

So yeah, maybe we just need a heavy tank buff and nerf shockies...

[AoAGeneral1]

Ive noticed recently that flak trucks actually shoot outside of their own vision range and into the fog of war which presents a problem vs E3. This becoming able to outrange E3 themselves.

[raymundo]

I mainly play Russia and love using shocks as they are quite powerful. It's been said already, but they could take a health nerf and still be useful (-15% Health), perhaps giving them 80-85 hp instead of 100 hp.

With changing unit balance lets start with small changes and see the results on a playtests instead of changing multiple factors all at once.

PS - look at my avatar

[zinc]

Something that I think may be good for the soviets is if a vehicle (maybe V2) was given an extended sight.

Allies will use helis for sight on the battlefield but yaks aren't quite as good for that job. Soviets do have the spy plane but that's an occassional thing.

[zoidyberg]

I'm totally down with nerfing the Shock Troopers. Those things are too powerful as-is.

I sent in 5 Iron Curtained APCs filled with Shock Troopers and put a huge hole in the middle of Chamberlain's base a few nights ago. Chamberlain had plenty of units to pick off the Shock Troopers, but it didn't stop me from quickly causing a ton of damage.

[Prince Blueblood]

http://resource.openra.net/maps/3814/

Long story short, from the inputs of fellow forum members :

SOVIETS:

Flak Truck
- Sight range increase from 6 to 7
Rationale: Flak Truck sight made a bit larger, as more reliable ground scout (and to make them not merely 'shoot into the fog' like AoAGeneral said), Hind with micro should still be able to take them down though, just harder because Flak have easier time spotting them as well.

Heavy Tank
- Price reduction from 1150 to 1000
- Health increase from 550 to 575
Rationale: Despite their supposed role as main Soviet battle tank, Heavy Tank has only a very specific use in multiplayer, and thus, rarely used, this boost specifically aim for heavy tanks to be used more as the main force instead of an overpriced support unit, yes they're may be deemed as sightly OP, but that's why you allies should focus less on arty and develop your own tank forces

Hijacker
- Price increase from 500 to 600
- Speed increase from 56 to 64
- Hijacker is cloaked when not moving
Rationale: Previous hijacker stats made him practically usable only if you pair him with an APC and use him to go GTA on enemy harversters, interesting use, but definitely not something doable against good enemy players. So the Hijacker is buffed to act more like GLA hijacker, that's it, an ambush capturer.

MIG
- Sight range increase from 12 to 13
- Get air-air capability
Rationale: Soviets have NO WAY to stand up Allied Helicopter Force... who coming from a big body of water. MIGs with Anti-Air capability and increased vision should help.

RUSSIA SPECIFIC:

Shock Trooper
- Price increase from 400 to 500
- Health reduction from 100 to 80
Rationale: Shock Trooper is too strong and sturdy for it's price, they got nerfed but maintain their prodigious offense, should work better when mixed with other infantry instead of a single flavoured ball of shock troopers now

Tesla Tank
- Price increase from 1350 to 1400
- Health increase from 400 to 475
Rationale: Tesla Tank is weaker and mobile mobile Tesla Coil, they are now sturdier stuff, but also more expensive a bit to reflect that

ALLIES:

Light Tank
- Price reduction from 700 to 650
- Sight range increase from 4 to 5
Rationale: cheaper because Soviet heavy tank is also cheaper, also they are supposed to be scouts so they should not has worse vision than medium tank at least

Medium Tank
- Price reduction from 850 to 800
Rationale: Also marginally cheaper because soviet heavy tank is cheaper

Sniper
- Given to Allies, buildable after you get Radar Dome
- Price increase from 700 to 800
- Health reduction from 80 to 45
- Sight range increase from 6 to 7
- Sniper now permanently cloaked even while moving, still decloak when firing though, specifically here to reveal the hijackers because Allies didn't have dogs