One More Soviet Faction?

Because Allies have 3

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Prince Blueblood
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One More Soviet Faction?

Post by Prince Blueblood » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:00 am

Yeah, another one soviet faction.

Since Russians have Teslas (aka Soviet murdertech), and Ukraine have specialist demolitions (aka Demolition truck), should they get another faction to round it up with the Allies?

Of course, Germany and their tech are roughly equal with Russia (tesla could be argued as tech too), and Ukrainian specialities are nice as it put them roughly equal with Brits (spy specialities).

We just need to get the Soviet one more faction that roughly put them on par with France, but instead of Deception, we could go to "Fortifications and or defense"

Maybe give them advanced Iron Curtain and The Sniper (pretty good unit in it's own) and name them...
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Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:39 am

Maybe give them fake units instead of buildings?

zinc
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Post by zinc » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:24 am

Murto the Ray wrote: Maybe give them fake units instead of buildings?
Fake base defence?

zinc
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Post by zinc » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:26 am

Maybe a soviet faction with an advanced tesla coil needing a tech centre?

PersianImmortal
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Post by PersianImmortal » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:00 pm

Soviet faction with an advanced Sam and air to air mig.

noobmapmaker
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Post by noobmapmaker » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:25 pm

China, with cheap infantry and...??

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Post by noobmapmaker » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:26 pm

Disruptive technology, given their hacking powers nowadays.

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Prince Blueblood
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Post by Prince Blueblood » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:06 am

Let's see our suggestions so far...

- defensive Soviet (sniper for guarding and looking at chokepoints, maybe advanced or cheaper wall, advanced iron curtain)
- air specialist Soviet (air to air Mig or Yak // Sukhoi fighter?), early or cheaper airfield
- disruptive Soviet? (too much subversive and allies is the subversive one), maybe cloaked hijackers and some kind of spy?
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BaronOfStuff
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Post by BaronOfStuff » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:17 pm

I'm not really sure the Soviets need a third sub-faction.

fernoe
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Post by fernoe » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:57 pm

tbh it looks like the poeple making the red alert mod are already having trouble coming up with ideas for the french team as it is. there's been a lot of discussion on how to make the french team more useful, which suggests that hardly anyone is playing as france.

adding in a new soviet faction is only necessary if the team can come up with ideas on how to make that new faction useful. its better for a game to have a few, useful options rather than loads of mostly non-useful options

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:32 pm

fernoe wrote: tbh it looks like the poeple making the red alert mod are already having trouble coming up with ideas for the french team as it is. there's been a lot of discussion on how to make the french team more useful, which suggests that hardly anyone is playing as france.

adding in a new soviet faction is only necessary if the team can come up with ideas on how to make that new faction useful. its better for a game to have a few, useful options rather than loads of mostly non-useful options
Agreed. I think the French faction is actually quite powerful; its just that no one can really use it too well since everyone likes the sound of an exciting weapon such as an advanced chronoshift or phase transport so cant be bothered to play as the French which could easily use their deceptive powers to fool the greatest opponents etc. etc.

Its just like the utilization of massing shock troopers; it took a while for people to start doing but now it's a deadly strategy - invaluable to soviet players in the current meta.

As for new factions etc. I would rather the factions were polished as they are than new ones be brought in.

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r34ch
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Post by r34ch » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:32 pm

Murto the Ray wrote: I think the French faction is actually quite powerful
I got absolutely murdered 1v1 by a good player who was playing France. I've watched the replay to death because their execution was so good.

I won't divulge anything since the tournament is coming up, but I think for a certain type of play style, France is really quite powerful.

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:13 pm

r34ch wrote: I got absolutely murdered 1v1 by a good player who was playing France. I've watched the replay to death because their execution was so good.

I won't divulge anything since the tournament is coming up, but I think for a certain type of play style, France is really quite powerful.
Im so divided at the moment between Russia and France, I really want to learn to play with France because i hate the current meta with shock troopers because it feels too powerful and like it has no counter except arty or MOAHR SHOK TRUPRS which just doesn't suit me :/ Or maybe i'll try to whip something up with Ukraine, i used to love Ukraine until shock troopers started being used which basically made it useless on anything but naval maps.

I probably wont be taking part in the tournament because i'll be away in a week or so for a couple of weeks away. In any case; good luck all!

zoidyberg
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Post by zoidyberg » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:10 pm

Shock Troopers are pretty powerful. Maybe a max of 25-30 Shock Troopers on the field at once?

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:41 pm

zoidyberg wrote: Shock Troopers are pretty powerful. Maybe a max of 25-30 Shock Troopers on the field at once?
The problem with limits is that they are so situational. Fora large map, 20-30 is a tiny number.For a small map its a huge number. Im no fan of limits other than 1 (for units such as tanya) so this IMO wouldnt really be a fix for shock troopers. Shock troopers would either need to be changed or something else changed/introduced to counter them.

Shock trooper rushing requires a large investment in teching very early on, getting tech centre as early as >4:00 isnt uncommon. The problem is that this leaves you strapped for cash and so leaves you with very few units and defences early game so it is very weak to tactics such as flamer rushes and grenadier sneaking; the difficulty lies in finding out whether your opponent is shock rushing before it is too late. An indication of this can be a very early flak truck or other vehicle. However. if this is not a 1v1 then pillboxes can be placed around the player by allies; thus preventing the player from being disrupted early on by mass infantry.

My own possible counters are as follows:

-Yak rushing: Getting three yaks up and on the go takes roughly 4:00 from start (havent done in a while so timing isnt quite accurate) which is how many you need to take out a single ore refinery in one go. However if the shock rusher has decided to go for 2 refineries thus delaying the shock troopers and getting a more secure economy then this plan backfires and puts you at a pretty bad disadvantage. Also, they may have allied air defences.

-Inf mass: talked about this, essentailly making enough inf to take out something substantial like an ore refinery early on. Allied defences also prevent this.

-MCV push: moving your MCV in once an economy is established with a fair amount of inf and a defence cued (if this is second MCV). Again, relies on shock rusher not having supportive allies.

-Timed Demo Truck: This is a tricky one. It requires you to tech early, que a demo truck and then use yaks + migs to defend/attack. The moment shock troopers come into the picture you unpause the demotruck production and destroy them; then you cue up another and the cycle continues. Recommended to get an early nuke so that you are essentially holding them off until the nuke and BAM! go in for the kill.



I've only tested inf mass and MCV push, both work pretty well with the absence of supportive enemy allies (such as in FFAs). I am yet to test the others but they are both very specific in their use so probably wont find mainstream use.

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