Ideas for better game balancing.

Discussion and feedback for Red Alert mod. Vox populi.

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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raymundo
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Post by raymundo » Thu May 14, 2015 1:44 pm

Newwe your right, The block alone isn't game changing, but if the tank or two is used to also shut down a single power plant, run over troops, and though trivial, cost them repairs, it really forces the opposing player to adjust their gameplay in reaction, especially if they were going fast tech. Meanwhile you can still build up and getting tech advantage. Again it isn't game changing but something to try every once in a while when an eny thinks they know what you will do. Coming from a soviet player, I feel the light tank should be a bit cheaper, and at late game after tech center is built time should be reduced to 8 seconds to encourage use, every unit should have a purpose. Edit: give allies the grenadier and now they are just as dangerous at early rush vs flamer apc

PersianImmortal
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Post by PersianImmortal » Thu May 14, 2015 3:06 pm

newwe wrote:
PersianImmortal wrote:
JOo wrote:
raymundo wrote: The light tank can cause trouble if sent out early in the game as a rush unit. This may be considered a cheap tactic but by sending it onto an opponents ore refinery you can stop them from gaining money for quite some time as the husk will block it.
this is a questionable tactic ...

im known to be one of the people , using this strategy , even in tournys ... and that was the point when devs decidet to make husks destroyable ...

the problem is , although you can destroy husks in front of warfactorys , you cant destroy them on a refinery-patch ... so your enemy has to wait until husks disapears ...

theres various stuff we can do , to prevent this ... but there is also people (devs) that actually like the idea of light-tank being able to do all that stuff ...

its basicly the same like the flamethrower tactic ...

everyone knows it "is" possible to defend a flamethrower-tactic .... and everyone knows , its a lame "noob" tactic ...

but the same goes for the light tank ... its a noob tactic , but you can defend it when you put enough rocket troopers out ... or a single tesla could do

@PersianImmortal : would be nice to hear your statement about this ...
Here's my take on it. The strategy is ok. It adds some diversity to the early game and let's allies have something they can actually do early game to harass the enemy. The problem that I have with it is the refinery glitch. If you park it in front of a war factory or block an ore field with a few of them the husks can be targeted and destroyed. When it's in a refinery you can't and you lose something like 45 seconds of build time. The husk needs to be targetable in the refinery.

There's always the argument that you can prevent it from even getting into the refinery. However your options are costly and inconsistent at best. I put two turrets near my refine and the enemy can just send 2 LTs one to soak up shots and the other to get in the refine. The same goes if i drop a tesla etc. I build a squad of rocket soldiers and the same thing send in 2-3 and one will make it which would be fine if the husk can be destroyed.
Is it really that amazing of a strat? It costs you 700/tank, requires some micro, sometimes doesn't work b/c the harvesters block the ref themselves, and you lose harvester building time. If your opponent has 2 refs it has very little effect.
Yes it is that good. It's very easy to do and literally cripples you for 45 seconds. You can't do anything. Ask JoO to demonstrate it on you and you'll see

newwe
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Post by newwe » Thu May 14, 2015 4:39 pm

PersianImmortal wrote:
newwe wrote:
PersianImmortal wrote:
JOo wrote:
raymundo wrote: The light tank can cause trouble if sent out early in the game as a rush unit. This may be considered a cheap tactic but by sending it onto an opponents ore refinery you can stop them from gaining money for quite some time as the husk will block it.
this is a questionable tactic ...

im known to be one of the people , using this strategy , even in tournys ... and that was the point when devs decidet to make husks destroyable ...

the problem is , although you can destroy husks in front of warfactorys , you cant destroy them on a refinery-patch ... so your enemy has to wait until husks disapears ...

theres various stuff we can do , to prevent this ... but there is also people (devs) that actually like the idea of light-tank being able to do all that stuff ...

its basicly the same like the flamethrower tactic ...

everyone knows it "is" possible to defend a flamethrower-tactic .... and everyone knows , its a lame "noob" tactic ...

but the same goes for the light tank ... its a noob tactic , but you can defend it when you put enough rocket troopers out ... or a single tesla could do

@PersianImmortal : would be nice to hear your statement about this ...
Here's my take on it. The strategy is ok. It adds some diversity to the early game and let's allies have something they can actually do early game to harass the enemy. The problem that I have with it is the refinery glitch. If you park it in front of a war factory or block an ore field with a few of them the husks can be targeted and destroyed. When it's in a refinery you can't and you lose something like 45 seconds of build time. The husk needs to be targetable in the refinery.

There's always the argument that you can prevent it from even getting into the refinery. However your options are costly and inconsistent at best. I put two turrets near my refine and the enemy can just send 2 LTs one to soak up shots and the other to get in the refine. The same goes if i drop a tesla etc. I build a squad of rocket soldiers and the same thing send in 2-3 and one will make it which would be fine if the husk can be destroyed.
Is it really that amazing of a strat? It costs you 700/tank, requires some micro, sometimes doesn't work b/c the harvesters block the ref themselves, and you lose harvester building time. If your opponent has 2 refs it has very little effect.
Yes it is that good. It's very easy to do and literally cripples you for 45 seconds. You can't do anything. Ask JoO to demonstrate it on you and you'll see
I think he did it to me once a while back and it worked very well (I responded very poorly, and he combined it with a rush with at least one other teammate.) I've also seen it not work that well from him, and haven't really seen others do it successfully (maybe b/c it's considered cheap and thus not widely used.) I think if you know it's a possibility, you can counter and it's not going to be too devastating, but I could be wrong.

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Fri May 15, 2015 8:25 am

Ive seen this done and done it myself a few times but it is quite easily countered by a tesla coil; however this depends on the opposing player not being able to reach your ore refinery 12 seconds after they make the light tank (time between light tank being finished and tesla coil being finished)

PersianImmortal
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Post by PersianImmortal » Fri May 15, 2015 3:48 pm

Murto the Ray wrote: Ive seen this done and done it myself a few times but it is quite easily countered by a tesla coil; however this depends on the opposing player not being able to reach your ore refinery 12 seconds after they make the light tank (time between light tank being finished and tesla coil being finished)
Yeah and then the allied player has a decent time advantage because you have to worry about countering a strat that if it's successful cripples you for 45 secs
I'd have no problem with it, if you can shoot the husk in the refinery.

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Fri May 15, 2015 5:28 pm

PersianImmortal wrote:
Murto the Ray wrote: Ive seen this done and done it myself a few times but it is quite easily countered by a tesla coil; however this depends on the opposing player not being able to reach your ore refinery 12 seconds after they make the light tank (time between light tank being finished and tesla coil being finished)
Yeah and then the allied player has a decent time advantage because you have to worry about countering a strat that if it's successful cripples you for 45 secs
I'd have no problem with it, if you can shoot the husk in the refinery.
A decent counter for either faction is to just block your own ore refinery when the L-tank comes so that it cant block your ore refinery for longer.

epice
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Post by epice » Sat May 16, 2015 12:44 pm

I thought this got fixed and husks get pushed out of the refinery unloading cell? Unless you mean build enough lights to block every cell around it?

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Sat May 16, 2015 2:49 pm

epicelite wrote: I thought this got fixed and husks get pushed out of the refinery unloading cell? Unless you mean build enough lights to block every cell around it?
I literally mean put your own ltank in your own ore refinery if the enemy comes with one of their own.

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Sat May 16, 2015 2:52 pm

Right here's something controversial....

How about making artillery (and v2s) require the tech centre?

I understand that artillery has been talked about over and over again but some kind of final agreement has to be made about a debuff for them.

newwe
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Post by newwe » Sat May 16, 2015 4:08 pm

Murto the Ray wrote: Right here's something controversial....

How about making artillery (and v2s) require the tech centre?

I understand that artillery has been talked about over and over again but some kind of final agreement has to be made about a debuff for them.
Requiring tech center is way too much of a debuff imo. Yaks are good enough early on to counter arty, and later iron curtained flaks are solid, and basewalking with teslas. If they require a nerf it should be pretty small imo.

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Sat May 16, 2015 4:32 pm

newwe wrote:
Murto the Ray wrote: Right here's something controversial....

How about making artillery (and v2s) require the tech centre?

I understand that artillery has been talked about over and over again but some kind of final agreement has to be made about a debuff for them.
Requiring tech center is way too much of a debuff imo. Yaks are good enough early on to counter arty, and later iron curtained flaks are solid, and basewalking with teslas. If they require a nerf it should be pretty small imo.
Yeah... great. Great that since every allies player does arty spam you have to do the same every game; real great.

What red alert needs is something to prevent arty spam, when you can win easily by just spamming a single unit it means it is OP and needs a debuff. Especially since it takes such little micro as well and its cheap and can shoot half way across the map. Great.

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raymundo
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Post by raymundo » Sat May 16, 2015 5:55 pm

It shouldn't be tech center, the tech level of radar is good as it stands. This is coming from a soviet player, i really don't find artillery that hard to deal with, especially if they spam artillery and I can kill them all with a couple of flak trucks. The issue, and why you see "spam", is it's the only way for allies to deliver firepower. Their tanks are underwhelming and long bows have slow rate of fire. Allies should have more options for how they want to play. I would like to see allies get an extra unit, or rework current units to give variety to allie attacks.
Artilelry do not need any "nerfs"
Last edited by raymundo on Sat May 16, 2015 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Sat May 16, 2015 6:09 pm

raymundo wrote: if they spam artillery and I can kill them all with a couple of flak trucks.
any decent allies player uses infantry to shield their arty from flak trucks; a couple wont do. However, i know exactly what you mean, there are a few allies players that just bunch up their arty and send it forth under the cover of helis. Its the ones who dont and base walk into you that are the problem.
raymundo wrote: I would like to see allies get an extra unit, or rework current units to give variety to allies attacks.
as would i
raymundo wrote: Artilelry do not need any "nerfs"
well yes, they do. If artillery was truly balanced it wouldnt be the only strategy that allies players uses.

Just something to add to it; how do people feel about a few of us on the forums contributing to a singular OpenRA mod based on RA where we implement balancing changes to units and test them out before coming to conclusions as to whether that change would be suitable or not?

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raymundo
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Post by raymundo » Sat May 16, 2015 6:19 pm

Yes, so maybe its not that they need a nerf, its that other units aren't as important for getting the "win".The allied base walk can be powerful, but you can have iron curtain built under 5 minutes, being able to use it around 7 minutes. If you can hold out that long, you have a way to break their front line.


Many players do not visit these forums, perhaps an even can be made for an irc chat where it is announced people will be having discussion on the balance. Roundtable discussion sort of. Would be easier to chat about this stuff live.

Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray » Sat May 16, 2015 6:22 pm

raymundo wrote: Yes, so maybe its not that they need a nerf, its that other units aren't as important for getting the "win".
I feel like this is a bit like saying "its not that they need a nerf, its just that other units are inferior to artillery"
raymundo wrote: Many players do not visit these forums, perhaps an even can be made for an irc chat where it is announced people will be having discussion on the balance. Roundtable discussion sort of. Would be easier to chat about this stuff live.
Agreed, but ill make a thread for it here on the forums but announce changes on IRC as well ( #openra will be used)

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