TD balance thread

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:39 am

Turrets/guns: In OpenRA the turrets do 40 damage and shoot faster then GTs. The GT has 30 damage, shoots slower and only does 70 vs light.

AGTs: 40 power consumption is not cheap. Refineries take up 50 alone. While they build at $1000 it also takes them 48 seconds to produce. The same amount of time it takes to make a weapons factory and airstrip. Which means the enemy is being allowed to expand or do as he wishes without much herassment.

Airstrikes: Again, its random. Sometimes it takes them 15 seconds to reach. Sometimes 1 second. When you hear "Enemy planes approaching" Move your units in another direction. This can be easily done more so with quicker units. Even Medium tanks. Infantry is another story except for grenadiers which is the aspect to look into.

TheGrandMugwump
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Post by TheGrandMugwump » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:43 pm

Turrets/guns: In TD, guard towers actually did better against light armor than Turrets. It also helps to know that guard towers did not deal the same type of bullet damage as riflemen or buggies. This is easily seen when infantry explode into pieces on death from a guard tower's attack, which indicates the guard tower deals the same type of damage as grenadiers, artillery, or old style rockets. The fact guard towers did obscene amounts of AoE damage also indicates this. They were quite effective against light armor if it came within range, and RA moved away from this.

AGT's: The 48 second build time would be significantly more daunting if defenses weren't in a separate build queue from non-defense structures. I fail to see how building an AGT prevents a player from also building an airstrip/weapons factory at the same time in the current system. And the fact it costs the same amount of power as a turret does mean it is a relatively low power cost for the functionality it brings to the field.

Airstrikes: Is your up to 15 seconds based on a massive map? Because I never get that much time in small or medium sized maps when I hear enemy planes incoming. It is typically in the couple seconds range, which isn't even enough time for heavier units to turn around before they get wiped out by napalm. If it is of any assistance, the original charge times in TD for special commands were: Airstrike 8 minutes, Ion Cannon 10 minutes, Nuke 13 minutes.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:45 pm

Turrets: The damage difference is because they did to much damage to light targets which did more then a turret would do in damages.

AGT: Turrets power is 20. AGT is 40. Its alot higher as normal power plants only provide 100 power. Seperate tab build queues dont make a difference. It allows them to be built at the same time yes but the time to actually set one down is a long one.

Airstrikes: It doesnt matter on map size. You could be battling in the corner and the planes will come from the otherside of the corner. That is still 15 seconds regardless of map size. If the map was larger then it could take 30 seconds.

Alltogether: It seems like we will need to do some 1v1 gameplays so you can show me the issues at hand. When would you like to do some games?

TheGrandMugwump
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Post by TheGrandMugwump » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:30 pm

My apologies for the delayed response.

Airstrikes: I've noticed I seem to get more warning on airstrikes when playing as NOD some of the time. It's really weird. Sometimes I hear planes incoming with plenty of time to react, other times I only hear planes incoming when they spawn on the edge of the map, which only gives me a few seconds on smaller maps to react, and other times I never hear the warning at all, which seems to happen most frequently as GDI. I'm fairly certain the helper voice only says planes incoming when they actually spawn on the map edge when I'm playing as GDI if it does at all, despite the beacon being on the ground for 15 seconds. Maybe I'm just not hearing it.

Alltogether: Thank you for taking the time to answer my comments and concerns. I'm not really sure when a reliable time to play some 1v1's will be, but it will likely be late at night in MDT (GMT-6 or UTC-6, whichever is your favorite flavor).

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:51 pm

Airstrikes: Ive come up with a few ideas that will certianly fix the issue of instantly killing all infantry but it also has other cons. I will present the ideas after the next release.

Im going to be up all night. PDT here GMT -8. Currently 1100. I will be up till 0400. Because yay day off lol

No worries on the delayed responses! xD

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:27 am

Playtest is now out. You will find me playing games randomly on there.

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AoAGeneral1
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Ideas/balances.

Post by AoAGeneral1 » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:31 pm

These balances are not currently implemented in any version. These are ideas that im doing that can give more balance and gameplay to units. If you have any ideas please leave them here.

Ideas/Balances:

All infantry can now detect stealth at range of 3 instead of 1. This gives bazooka infantry a chance to shoot along with minigunners.

MLRS price reduced from 1200 to 900. This will give them more use on the field and a shorter build speed.

Repair pad power reduced from 30 to 20. Im currently working on a faster repair rate for units on the pad as it is currently way to slow. (Thanks to Insert Name for bringing this structure to my attention)

Blue Tiberium value reduced from 110% effectivness to either 90% or 80%. This is due to maps such as deterring democracy2v2 where if you dont move and capture blue fields in the start of the game you can outproduce two refineries on a green field.

Infantry evade chance increased from 63 to 80+. Currently infantry only have a chance roll mechanic for this to dodge. This can be increased all the way to 100. This however doesnt mean they are immune to crushing. If you have several vehicles they can crush infantry as they are moving to their new location.

Walls.Due to some previous games I am now looking to nerf walls a bit. An instance where walls can rebuilt very fast to block choke point terrains or around the AGT towers. Looking at either an 8 second time increase or otherwise.

Crates are going to be revamped. Changing mainly from unit duplication from the start of the match which ends games instantly. Also will be adding visceroids to crates again. They want some love.

Sam sites aren't a widely used structure due to their limitations vs MSAM units. Dropping the price from 750$ to 700$ is currently being tested which gives a slightly faster build speed as well. Perhaps a range increase? What are your thoughts?

Airstrikes. The infamous airstrikes. An idea I have for this is to either remove or keep the chain guns. The bombs itself would be replaced with a much slower napalm fall which gives infantry a chance to move. The napalms damage would be increased to compensate their slow falling speed.
Last edited by AoAGeneral1 on Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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r34ch
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Re: Ideas/balances.

Post by r34ch » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:04 pm

AoAGeneral1 wrote: Crates are going to be revamped. Changing mainly from unit duplication from the start of the match which ends games instantly
Ugh yea I've had some silly games because of crates. Stealth APC with engineers capturing the enemy MCV in first 5 minutes was probably the funniest.

Personally I think all mods could benefit from a 5 minute crate delay at the start.

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Norman_
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Post by Norman_ » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:37 am

i think it would be worth testing mammoths missiles not being able to hit ground units & buildings like in cnc95 and ra. for only 1500,- they are too powerful compared to the other units. service prereq. for that unit makes sense too.

the apache helicopter isnt used often. i guess its because that unit is almost useless. 1200,- for what? anti inf or scouting? not sure how to make that unit better, but it needs some fixing.

whats the reason nod has no commando? and why no buildlimit max:1? for me, that guy is hard to defend lol. he even survives an guard tower.. nice for sneaky stuff, but what if there are more than just one commando? a group of them can eat your base so fast...

some details: the refinery animation with the arrows from cnc95 isnt working in openra lol
and theres a sam bug: after aiming a target, even when you press s, that device isnt closing like it should. the mobile sam has no correct rocket animation while shooting, i mean it would be nice to see that unit reloading a missile.
the chinook in td is flat lol. why not using ra ones? looks better

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:36 am

@R34ch - The five minute crate delay sounds like a good idea. The crates were used for a fun toy system as the devs wanted but it got turned into something else in TD games. Removing the unit duplication will help from games ending instantly. The other features of the crates can be changed but to turn them more into tournament like serious games will be difficult.

@Norman_

#1: The mammoth missiles actually do hit all targets in CNC95. Using the S command key trick in 95 version will actually make them shoot pure missiles. Which isn't very effective against certain vehicles but one shots infantry and massive damage to buildings. The ORA version has them correctly balanced in the fact they can fire all four ports but not as strongly.

At 1500 with a build speed of 36 seconds is rather balanced in comparison due to the fact it requires an adv com center which takes 48 seconds to build as well. You can easily be rushed if you decide to go a heavy tech build as GDI. Let alone mammoths are capable of mowing down. GDI vs GDI try E3 infantry mixed with tanks and MLRS. Nod vs GDI try using bikes, E3, chems, and Stealth tanks. (Which btw bikes can be built straight from the package. Use this for an effective counter to tech builders)

#2: Apache falls in the same category as Orcas in the fact they are not used often. However this debate falls in line with someone whom mentioned about Flame tanks which also are not used often. This is because alot of people are using heavy armor units which counter flame tanks. It is rare for a person to use infantry in team games. And if done so use tanks to crush infantry. With the balance of dodge chance increasing this can compensate for viable flame tank builds. Still keeping my eye on this unit.

For 1200 the unit flies and moves quickly. It can dodge bike rockets, E3, stay clear of MSAM and do arial attacks. (Which can prevent the use of chinook herasses I might add). The reason this unit is not used often is because of other unit rush capabilities. The air units are more often used late game or team games. If you remember the 3v3 game where Kusanagi went pure orcas?

#3: Nod has no commando because they have a large assortment of infantry that deals well with either other infantry and vehicles itself. The commando is given to GDI to counter the infantry in late game. There is no max:1 because they have a slower fire rate then Tanya does. As far as instantly killing structures it is very difficult to get a commando inside the base. If you are having chinook drops in your base try using some apache/orcas to counter the chinook drops. Commandos also take large amounts of damage from a single guard tower. Nearly into the red actually.

#4: The animations/sprites can use some upgrades but I do like the old style chinook myself. However I am not good in animation control and etc. I mainly deal with numbers and balance mechanics. Insert Name is a pro when it comes to sprites and knows alot more of the code then I do.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:10 am

This list has not been implemented at all. This does not exist in the playtest or the release version. This is an idea post. Please give feedback or ideas!

Ideas:

Infantry stealth detection: Increase sight range of stealth detection to 2 or 3.

MLRS: Reduce price to 900 from 1200

Repair pad: Power to 20 from 30. Increase repair speed.

Blue Tiberium: Reduce the value income to 75-90% from 110%

Infantry evade chance: to 80-90 from 67

Concrete Walls: Time increase to 7 from 3

Crates: Add visceroids to crate spawn chance. Because they want some love. Allow crates to spawn after 2-5 min of game time.

Samsites: cost reduced to 650-700 from 750

Airstrikes: ????

Flame Tanks: ????

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anjew
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Post by anjew » Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:27 am

Definitely agree with infantry stealth detection change
Nice idea with the repair pad, "might" make it more useful however I don't think it will. TD with the multiple build queues makes it redundant since due to how easy it is to make a new unit and how long it would take to repair every single unit
Personally disagree with increasing the evade chance, especially so high. I think it's pretty important especially at the very start as using a harvester to stop early infantry rushs. It's also possible to help avoid being crushed with scatter. Maybe 75% but 90% is way too high.

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Prince Blueblood
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Post by Prince Blueblood » Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:01 am

For the opposite side, I agree to raise infantry evade chance even higher in TD, basically now infantry are mostly useless while you go with 4 airfields churning tanks and vehicles.

I mean, come on, they get instakilled by airstrikes, already harmed a lot by tiberium, and you want them to still crushed easily by tanks...

but yeah, even RA with 50% infantry dodge chance (numerically lower), end up far more usable there... but maybe this is because Medium tank speed in TD is the speed of light tank in RA, so yeah... and tanks are cheaper in TD too...

oh well... rant over... if anyone harassing harvesters with infantry, this will happen only in RA and Dune 2k. Tiberium harms non chem infantry, and chem are lategame thing...
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anjew
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Post by anjew » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:55 am

I just think 90% is way too far. Thats every 1 in 10. It will take on average 10 tries to crush one infantry.Maybe make scatter stronger? :D

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Prince Blueblood
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Post by Prince Blueblood » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:05 am

anjew wrote: I just think 90% is way too far. Thats every 1 in 10. It will take on average 10 tries to crush one infantry
not exactly like that I'm affraid

RA has only 50% evade chance and Infantry are more useful there due to Non Toxic Ore (who slows non harvester vehicles down), and overall slower tank movements.

TD has like 67% evade chance, but infantry are much more easier to squish with tanks. I wonder why... (and must avoid tiberium didn't help either)
OpenRA Nicks :
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- Yuelang (when I speak Chinese, literally)

My Ping might be Red... blame distance and my shitty connection due to which country I lived in...

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