TD balance thread

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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Beans
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Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:41 pm

Balance

Post by Beans » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:48 pm

A mammoth replaces a medium tank, a chem troop replaces a flame troop. I don't think there is something inherently wrong with higher tech replacing lower tech units as long as the price is appropriate. If the APC were a little slower than currently and the machine gun was slightly weaker than the hummers, I think it could work well. I for one am all for some key changes that bring things back to classic style games. Making APC vulnerable to air would certainly go a long way towards balancing the unit, it's main function would go back to carrying men I guess, and that's never done enough at present. lets try it!

Mesacer
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:03 pm

Post by Mesacer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:51 pm

MCV:
* Cost is reduced to 3000$
* Speed reduced to 60

APC:
* Reduced the projectile speed from instant to 900
* Price increased to 650$
* Health reduced by 10%
* Reduced the turn speed from 8 to 5
* Build time set to 15 sec
* Anti air gun reduced from 7 to 5

Rocket Launcher:
* Cost reduced to 800$

Commando:
* Reduced the price from 2000$ to 1500$

Service Depot:
* Heal rate increased by 100%

Apache Longbow:
* Damage increase against None from 100% to 125%
* Range vs ground increased from 4 to 5

Oil Derrick:
* Reduced the health from 100000 to 70000

Rocket Solider:
* Increased movment speed from 42 to 48

Engineer:
* Fix for handling the problem when caputuring a building which gets repaired

Other:
* Husk from light vehicles on stays for a few secs

Mobile SAM:
* Cost reduced from 600$ to 500$

SAM Site:
* Cost reduced from 650$ to 550$
* Build time reduced from 27 to 25 sec

Weapons Factory / Airstrip
* Reduced the power requirements from -50 to -40


16:9 https://resource.openra.net/maps/26384/
Aggressive Tendencies https://resource.openra.net/maps/26385/
Alpha Juno V https://resource.openra.net/maps/26386/
Antrax (TDGL:S1) https://resource.openra.net/maps/26387/
Avocado (TDGL:S1) https://resource.openra.net/maps/26388/
Back to Basics https://resource.openra.net/maps/26389/
Badland Ridges (TDGL:S1) https://resource.openra.net/maps/26390/
Burning Hammer https://resource.openra.net/maps/26391/
Control and Chaos https://resource.openra.net/maps/26392/
Desert Rats https://resource.openra.net/maps/26393/
Deterring Democracy https://resource.openra.net/maps/26394/
Escalations https://resource.openra.net/maps/26395/
Matchpoint (TDGL:S1) https://resource.openra.net/maps/26396/
Order of Battle Balance https://resource.openra.net/maps/26397/
Pirates & Emperors (TDGL:S1) https://resource.openra.net/maps/26398/
Schwarzwald https://resource.openra.net/maps/26399/
Sustain https://resource.openra.net/maps/26400/
Twisted Ichor Wasteland https://resource.openra.net/maps/26401/
Valley of Gold https://resource.openra.net/maps/26402/
Vectors of Battle https://resource.openra.net/maps/26403/

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avalach21
Posts: 213
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:01 pm

Post by avalach21 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:01 pm

I know that I am in no place to be making balance recommendations in this topic, but can someone answer why the APC is shooting air in the first place? Just seems awkward, goofy and out of place, and def a huge departure from the original. People are saying that Nod's apaches suck and are under used, which I'm sure you can blame on how easy they are to countered with APCs. People also mention that the main purpose that APCs have AA capability added is to counter GDI vs GDI matches..

Can Orcas not shoot other air targets? If not.. then why? A counter to air in GDI vs GDI should be getting your own air.. wouldn't that be simple common sense? If they beat you to helipad, then you have to play it safe, stay in your base, use rocket troops and advanced guard towers until you can get your own air out.

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Beans
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Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:41 pm

Post by Beans » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:22 pm

* Price increased to 650$


APC being the same price as T2 light tanks is frankly offensive to me. Light tanks should be it's hard counter. The APC should be 500, the same as the recon, and be appropriately balanced. I like the idea of reverting to machine gun on the APC and I propose we try that before changing the unit in a myriad of rushed ways,

If we are going to work on the repair pad, that's great, its massively underused as it just can't keep up. As well as the speed of repair increase, make it free to repair units too. Then it may make its way in to peoples build orders. Exciting times!

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Sleipnir
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Post by Sleipnir » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:47 pm

avalach21 wrote: can someone answer why the APC is shooting air in the first place?
It filled a hole in the 2011-era gameplay, taking precedent from one of the FMVs that showed it with a quad-cannon shooting at an apache:

Image

Note that back then the APC was AA only (it didn't grow the ability to attack ground until 2013, with #2721) which is an option that I don't think anyone has suggested yet as a possible solution for the current balance issues.

Mesacer
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:03 pm

Post by Mesacer » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:14 pm

Beans wrote: * Price increased to 650$


APC being the same price as T2 light tanks is frankly offensive to me. Light tanks should be it's hard counter. The APC should be 500, the same as the recon, and be appropriately balanced. I like the idea of reverting to machine gun on the APC and I propose we try that before changing the unit in a myriad of rushed ways,

If we are going to work on the repair pad, that's great, its massively underused as it just can't keep up. As well as the speed of repair increase, make it free to repair units too. Then it may make its way in to peoples build orders. Exciting times!
The problem is that the APC is not the same as the Recon bike, it has heavy armor and can transport. And if we revert it back to the machine gun as we tested it just replaces the humvee.

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Beans
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Post by Beans » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:45 pm

The APC needs the armour to counter recon bikes and to make carrying expensive troops viable, a weaker machine gun on the APC as opposed to the hummer will still make the hummer a credible counter to men, especially with the price difference. As I stated before, there is nothing wrong with unit roles overlapping with other units, in fact it adds to diverse game play; if every unit has an extremely specific role we will all end up playing like robots. I remain a strong supporter of reverting APC to machine gun and have yet to be persuaded by any compelling argument.

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Orb
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Post by Orb » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:38 pm

I think removing AA from the APC is not an option. I played one game of it with Gannon and it swiftly turned into orca spam. Aircraft are powerful, and anti air defenses are difficult to use with 1 MCV play.

In my opinion, what would produce the best gameplay is to have APCs beat buggies, and humvees beat attack bikes. Likewise, attack bikes beat APCs, and buggies beat humvees. The cost/health changes would likely lead to this situation.

Removing the anti ground weapon is also an option, though making it so that GDI only has to spam humvees is kind of boring.

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Inq
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Post by Inq » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:53 am

Orb wrote: I think removing AA from the APC is not an option. I played one game of it with Gannon and it swiftly turned into orca spam. Aircraft are powerful, and anti air defenses are difficult to use with 1 MCV play.

In my opinion, what would produce the best gameplay is to have APCs beat buggies, and humvees beat attack bikes. Likewise, attack bikes beat APCs, and buggies beat humvees. The cost/health changes would likely lead to this situation.

Removing the anti ground weapon is also an option, though making it so that GDI only has to spam humvees is kind of boring.
Its pretty powerful because it auto reloads and does not need to rearm like the original game. Creating your own problems. :P

I guess if reverting to a machine gun APC, you could test giving the humvee superior speed & vision, so it still had a scout role. (Although there would still be considerable overlap)

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AoAGeneral1
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Re: Balance

Post by AoAGeneral1 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 2:57 am

Beans wrote: A mammoth replaces a medium tank, a chem troop replaces a flame troop. I don't think there is something inherently wrong with higher tech replacing lower tech units as long as the price is appropriate.
Nothing wrong with some units replacing other units.

But the chem doesn't replace the flamethrower. Chems do more damage vs vehicles while the flamethrower does more vs infantry. The flamethrower infantry also does more damage to certain buildings (IE: Guard Tower) While the Chems do more damage vs armor structures (IE: Gun Turret). Usually best to mix the two together with some minigunners.

The Mammoth Tank doesn't entirely replace the Medium Tank either as the Medium builds faster and moves faster. Having a mix of these units allows some coverage for the Mammoth Tanks.

Agreed on the APC price (Though keep it at 550 not 500.) But these are testing purposes.

---------

@Avalach21,

Apaches and Orcas can shoot air-to-air. Problem is these cost 1200 and require you to get the Com Center tech. If your saying these units should be the counter for AA then its going to be incredibly frustrating for players who did not get a helipad tech and loses because of the lack of AA options.

---------

@Inq,

Suggesting your idea about re-arming, the APC can be given a burst shot fire with a set reload timer in between the burst shots if that is a path to explore. (Though I can test that personally with a few quick games)

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avalach21
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Post by avalach21 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:02 am

Sleipnir wrote:
avalach21 wrote: can someone answer why the APC is shooting air in the first place?
It filled a hole in the 2011-era gameplay, taking precedent from one of the FMVs that showed it with a quad-cannon shooting at an apache:

Image

Note that back then the APC was AA only (it didn't grow the ability to attack ground until 2013, with #2721) which is an option that I don't think anyone has suggested yet as a possible solution for the current balance issues.
hmm interesting.. actually surprised there was some basis to this lol. i guess your C&C wisdom should never be doubted.

It does make me a bit more ok with it to see the cutscene. Also, I agree that making it AA only is an interesting option.. The flak track in RA2 sets the precedent for a unit transport that also has AA ability (and some vs ground ability but not very good at it)

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:08 am

Seeing the response about the quad canon APC I did a fun test where I took the APC canon turning it into a 4 shot burst with inaccuracy.

The result is rather amusing to watch. It made them miss a lot more from their furthest range until the aircraft flew closer where the shots landed more hits.

With a small flock of aircaft the inaccuracy of the APC canon allowed them to hit a few from their scattered shots which essentially gave them the flak effect.

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ZxGanon
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Post by ZxGanon » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:37 pm

Why is an expeinsive APC offensinve to you beans?

APC are so good and versatile in theory it should cost more than 700$ what it can actually pull off.

The Light Tank is just a kids toycare with a small cannon nothing else.

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Inq
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Re: Balance

Post by Inq » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:25 pm

AoAGeneral1 wrote:
@Inq,

Suggesting your idea about re-arming, the APC can be given a burst shot fire with a set reload timer in between the burst shots if that is a path to explore. (Though I can test that personally with a few quick games)
I was actually referring to Orb's comment about Orca spam, the spam not being as relentless/effective, if Orca's had the traditional reload mechanic e.g. return to helipad

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AoAGeneral1
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Re: Balance

Post by AoAGeneral1 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:14 am

Inq wrote:
AoAGeneral1 wrote:
@Inq,

Suggesting your idea about re-arming, the APC can be given a burst shot fire with a set reload timer in between the burst shots if that is a path to explore. (Though I can test that personally with a few quick games)
I was actually referring to Orb's comment about Orca spam, the spam not being as relentless/effective, if Orca's had the traditional reload mechanic e.g. return to helipad
Ah! I see what you mean now!

The traditional reload helipad was thought about I think nearly a year ago? But people in the community expressed that they like how versatile the aircraft became in their hit and run tactics.

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