TD balance thread

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:08 pm

The following are ideas only and not implemented into any build:

APC AA Gun projectile speed increase to 2 instead of 1c6.

Increase Oil Derrick HP.

Allow destroyed neutral buildings to be captured.

Flame Tank damage vs light vehicles increase to 100 from 67.

Flame Tank explosion damage increase to 120 from 100. (Requires more testing.)

Flame Tank damage spread increase to 400 from 341. (Requires more testing.)

Repair Pad HP increase to 700 from 600.

Obelisk Initial Charge Delay reduced to 1 from 50.

Obelisk Reload Delay increase to 75 from 40. (Requires more testing.)

Apache AA Gun range increase to 5 from 4.

Apache AG Gun range increase to 5 from 4.

Notes:

Everything is pretty well set. I need some feedback on air units though. Currently right now in my opinion I think aircraft are in a good spot. Matching the AA with AG vs Orcas range seems like a good start in equaling the power of the Apache. There has been some discussions about Apache vs armor units. I think the Apache should be lacking in damaging armored units while keeping a high rate of fire (AKA its reload bug) to deal the damage.

Engineer notes:

Ive been playing around with the idea of one engineer capturing mechanics such as C&C95. Thoughts?

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:35 am

AoAGeneral1 wrote: ↑The following are ideas only and not implemented into any build:

APC AA Gun projectile speed increase to 2 instead of 1c6.

Increase Oil Derrick HP.

Allow destroyed neutral buildings to be captured.

Flame Tank damage vs light vehicles increase to 100 from 67.

Flame Tank explosion damage increase to 120 from 100. (Requires more testing.)

Flame Tank damage spread increase to 400 from 341. (Requires more testing.)

Repair Pad HP increase to 700 from 600.

Obelisk Initial Charge Delay reduced to 1 from 50.

Obelisk Reload Delay increase to 75 from 40. (Requires more testing.)

Apache AA Gun range increase to 5 from 4.

Apache AG Gun range increase to 5 from 4.

Notes:

Everything is pretty well set. I need some feedback on air units though. Currently right now in my opinion I think aircraft are in a good spot. Matching the AA with AG vs Orcas range seems like a good start in equaling the power of the Apache. There has been some discussions about Apache vs armor units. I think the Apache should be lacking in damaging armored units while keeping a high rate of fire (AKA its reload bug) to deal the damage.

Engineer notes:

Ive been playing around with the idea of one engineer capturing mechanics such as C&C95. Thoughts?

All really good things to fix in my opinion. These updates should fix quite a few nit-picky points in balance that render some units no very useable.

It will make the apache more useful in air superiority whilst not giving it much of an advantage vs ground units other being able to micro from missiles more effectively.

The obelisk will be a worthwhile investment for its power usage and cost.

Though the flametank does have its uses it was confined to a situational position in the meta. I think its a really good idea to make them a bit more worth because of how easy it is to counter them. But does the explosion effect tanks more? I forgot to test that.

All in all, good ideas in my opinion. Would love to see more opinions though and would really like to see some more players testing the balance when AoA implements it. I think these changes need a lot of testing for them to be perfect.

ps. Im not against letting one engineer capture it because of how easy it is to lose an engineer. If there is a rifle weapon trained on the APC or even your own units attacking the building, engineers can get picked off too easily. I tried using 3 engineers to mitigate losing some however they still all get picked off. Would be interesting to introduce this.

IronScion · Post by **IronScion** » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:52 am

I don't play a great deal of TD, but I always loved the single-engi instant capture mechanic from the original game, so I would agree with introducing this, and I agree with anjew's reasoning.

ACM · Post by **ACM** » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:04 am

Ehh... I would miss the dreaded charge-up sound of the obelisk if it were to be removed entirely, as it has always been its defining characteristic that inspired terror in every player who stepped too close to one. Maybe only half the charge-up time to mitigate some of the targeting headaches, and go from there? But if it were possible for it to be programmed to switch targets mid-charge I would much prefer that.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:31 pm

The charge up would be nice to keep (Which still has the charge up sounds after the first shot) but that is what created the problem of the Obelisks full damage. An idea I had is when the Obelisk charges fully for its attack it keeps its charge state for five seconds and then it loses the charge. This enables it to switch targets or keep a hold on the charge when another unit walks in rather then a waste charge.

This would be a nice mechanic to have but to my knowledge is not implemented in ORA at the moment. If it is I can revert the information pasted here. Ive created the github ticket here to see if its possible: https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11415

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:37 am

For the obelisk, I'd prefer it to charge up, and then in a 5 second interval, scan for a target to shoot rather than an instant shot. After playing more, I can see the ob's biggest drawback by far is losing its charge after its target dies from another source. 150 power drain is still quite annoying though..

Personally against single engineer, unless there's some sort of delay before an engie enters a building.

MRLS and arty balance still irks me. After playing plenty of games, I still find MRLS a lot more useful. Only drawback is the price, but they're much easier to use cost-effectively than artys.
If there's anything that annoys me the most is the vision range of the artillery units.
Is there possibly any good replay I can watch where Nod artys are used extensively?

Also read the reasoning for the APC projectile speed increase, I'm just wondering why that's not also applied for missile units, bikes in particular.

Not exactly balance related, but is it possible to add a feature where ctrl+shift+mouse1 builds up 100 units? Would save a lot of time in a late-game with multiple factories.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:59 am

Obelisk idea right now is to have it either hold the charge for 5 seconds or it has a decay charge. While the other is using this idea https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/pull/11428

As for engineers a better idea that is being brought in is having them capture a few cells off rather then directly in the center of the building to prevent killing your own guys and quicker executions. This includes Commandos.

MLRS and Arty have their personal uses. MLRS is more about AoE damage (IE against bikes, Stealth Tanks, etc) while the Arty deals a lot of damage vs slow moving and stationary targets (IE infantry, buildings, etc). The Arty has a more limited use cone compared to the MLRS but with that being said the MLRS is more expensive. Losing an arty compared to an MLRS is not a big deal and seeing as arty shoots faster as well can make them more dangerous. But they are not widely used because they have a limited counter range. ACM would be your biggest example of mixing them in. I mainly tend to use them against infantry and buildings.

APCs get the buff because they are not as powerful vs ground units. Bikes make great counters against a larger pool of units/structures then compared to APCs. Its also worth noting the MSAM is a dedicated anti air unit while GDIs only anti air dedication would be the APC. Since the APC lacks ground damage in cases the bikes keep the extra damage but lack slightly against air. However, if your opponent doesn't utilize the air units correctly they can go down by bikes.

As for adding queue features I am unsure how to do that. I can ask the devs about it though.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:49 pm

Up for discussion. Next week I am going to start implementing into the bleed version. Any other feedback apply here!

APC AA Gun projectile speed increase to 2 instead of 1c6.

Increase Oil Derrick HP.

Allow destroyed neutral buildings to be captured.

Flame Tank damage vs light increase to 100 from 67.

Flame Tank explosion damage increase to 115 from 100.

Flame Tank damage spread increase to 400 from 341.

Repair Pad HP increase to 700 from 600.

Apache AA Gun range increase to 5 from 4.

Apache AG Gun range increase to 5 from 4.

Artillery Turn Speed increased to 4 from 2.

NOTES:

After feedback from several players and a lot of playing around with artillery in games I believe that I am wrong. While I do agree with the current turning radius of the artillery it presented a slight issue.

Fast moving vehicles such as APCs, buggies, bikes, were able to catch the Artillery fairly easily. However, if the artillery is well guarded the opponent ends up scrapping their own units with killing only a few artillery.

The other issue though is their firing while turning. Fast moving vehicles tended to outrun their turn radius as they were attempting to shoot. This also included getting into a position and having the artillery turn around to finally land some shots on infantry as well. This is now bumped up to increase the turn speed to 4. Still rather slow but an improvement none the less.

OBELISK:

Ive scrapped the current idea for the obelisk charges because I would like to see the other mechanic into play instead to keep the classic ominous charge. I am incapable of changing the charge delay or the other affect until someone is able to make the change. I will post the github ticket here if someone can help with this. https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/11415

DESTROYED NEUTRAL BUILDINGS:

The same as mentioned with obelisk above. I am currently unsure how to make this change. But I am going to play around with it tomorrow see if I can have it added. Otherwise I might have to make a github ticket as well.

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:35 pm

I think on normans kolosseum map he has made it so you can recapture oil derricks. I would love to see this implemented into TD as well as giving the oil a tiny buff. At this point you need 4 or more oil to show a difference in eco but most maps dont have enough oil

Norman_ · Post by **Norman_** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:15 pm

yes, also made some maps with oil +100% $ (maybe bit too much) and +25% hp to survive airstrikes and other stuff like apache +1 range etc.

http://resource.openra.net/maps/14723/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/14691/
http://resource.openra.net/maps/14659/

CampinJeff · Post by **CampinJeff** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:39 am

I think 20 would be a good number to start with on the oil, and increase it from there if necessary. And yes, recapturable derricks would be a nice addition.

Blackened · Post by **Blackened** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:07 am

Why not make oil refund the initial cost of the engineer so that you aren't down so much after getting one. Makes the risk reward better. You might start seeing people go for them on pirates and emperors.

AoAGeneral1 · Post by **AoAGeneral1** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:32 am

@Norman:

Recapturable derricks would be nice and this also counts for recapturable neutral buildings. (Hospitals, Bio Labs, etc) I was wondering if you could perhaps put in a github change there? I haven't been able to figure out how to do this in the code itself. Though if I look at the maps and take a look I can always do it also. Would be nice if you took credit on the idea/implementation.

--------

As for the Oil Derricks I will bump it to 20 a tick for testing out. For capturing to gain a 500 im not entirely sure why it was never in it to begin with. I will see if I can implement the change for the engineer refund. Currently right now it is difficult to use engineers effectively for a large assortment of buildings due to the cell placements.

anjew · Post by **anjew** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:40 pm

i think the oil buff + refund would be a bit op. I like the idea of risk/reward

Norman_ · Post by **Norman_** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:45 pm

i copied the code for recapturable derricks from one of insert names maps so he deserves the credit for that. maybe you enter it at github and mention him?

Code: Select all

	^TechBuildingHusk&#58;
		Inherits&#58; ^CivBuildingHusk
		Health&#58;
			HP&#58; 1
		DamageMultiplier&#58;
			Modifier&#58; 0
		Targetable&#58;
			RequiresForceFire&#58; yes
			TargetTypes&#58; None
		Capturable&#58;
			Type&#58; husk
			AllowAllies&#58; yes
			CaptureThreshold&#58; 100
		TransformOnCapture&#58;
			ForceHealthPercentage&#58; 25
	V19&#58;
		Inherits&#58; ^TechBuilding
		CashTrickler&#58;
			Amount&#58; 25
		Health&#58;
			HP&#58; 500
		Building&#58;
			Footprint&#58; x
			Dimensions&#58; 1,1
		Tooltip&#58;
			Name&#58; Oil Derrick
		SpawnActorOnDeath&#58;
			Actor&#58; V19.Husk
	V19.Husk&#58;
		Inherits&#58; ^TechBuildingHusk
		TransformOnCapture&#58;
			IntoActor&#58; v19
		Tooltip&#58;
			Name&#58; Oil Derrick &#40;Recapturable&#41;

i think 500hp is really nice for oil derricks (airstrike will bring it max to red bar hp) and always had the feeling $15,- is not enough