TD balance thread

Discussion about the game and its default mods.
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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

This actually doesn't exist in RA right now. For holding one queue and then it starts the next is a possible but I would like additional feedback on this one. I use the cancel completely mechanic and start a fresh build so I don't accidentally build another unit type later on. I do not have the knowledge to add this in myself but the idea can be presented to the devs :D

Cancel an entire queue already exists which is CTRL+right click.

Currently the Apache is the only air unit which fully refills after it has not fired for a certain amount of time but this is due to a bug. It hasn't hindered its balance to much however.

For the Orcas uuhh... eehhh.... If they were to all reload instantly this would make them waaaayy to powerful. FiveAces demonstrates the full potential of these units to their maximum and is enough to make a grown man cry if a correct counter isn't utilized. This allows Orcas to be a hit and run unit rather then a demolishing unit as full stack reloads would enable a lot of destruction in just a short period of time. They are designed to take short breaks from their hits.

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Blackened
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Post by Blackened »

I think technically what I'm suggesting for the orcas would hinder orcas. Instead of 2 missiles every 4 seconds it would be the full 6 every 12 seconds. The math works out the same if you don't let orcas attack during that time. Just with the full 6 every 12 seconds the orca is empty the whole time rather than what it is now.

Also I noticed the AGT attack radius circle is 1 bigger than it's actual range.

CampinJeff
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Post by CampinJeff »

Couple more things I'd like to point out besides the Obelisk:

1. I feel MLRS are much more cost efficient and effective than the Nod arty. Artys are just..too sluggish. Their movement, the projectile, the turn rate, all incredibly slow. Their next to nothing HP makes sense to some extent, but the movement I feel could be improved, or the projectile speed. Not to mention they get wiped out easily by MLRS b/c the maneuverability differences and the missiles being very fast and having bigger AOE.

2. SAM sites feel kind of useless. It's almost like the AGT, except one costs 300 more for a powerful ground attack. Sure when they're actually shooting at air units the damage is huge, but once you deploy it, it will likely never fire a single missile once scouted. Makes sense in the way they prevent air units from going into a certain area, but unless your opponent is investing very heavily on air, using MSAMs, E3, and Stanks late game is a much more effective way to deal with them.

3. It would be nice if all missiles traveled a little faster, especially with the recon bike. They really like to miss, most of the time against retreating vehicles and air units. Harvesters can easily escape simply by moving in the opposite direction, making all the missiles hit the ground, forcing you to move your bikes ahead, exposing them to damage.

4. Flame tanks I think could be more useful if their AOE is increased slightly and their damage against base defenses are increased. It shocked me when they dealt next to no damage against AGTs and Obelisks. When mid-game becomes a tank-fest, there's no real use for them besides perhaps dealing with a misplaced infantry blob or two. Would be great if they're given a purpose for busting unprotected defenses.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

@Blackened:

The Orcas actually do more damage right now then they would with just a six payload every twelve seconds. Because every 2 missiles by four seconds is extra damage they can do before they are forced to run away via AA. Which happens to be the case in many situations. Putting them at 6 by 12 seconds would be a pretty big nerf actually.

Also right now when the missiles get drained it takes 1 second before they fire an additional two missiles due to reload ticks coming on as soon as it fires.

For the AGT I will have a look.

@CampinJeff:

The Nod arty is actually stronger then the MLRS. They wipe out infantry like no tomorrow and mass bikes/buggy combinations as well. (Let alone bases O.o). The problem people run into is they don't have a good mixture with them for protection. A player named boxes, ACM, and myself have used Nod artys in situations that destroyed armies rather easily. A very fragile arty but a very dangerous one at that.

SAMs may seem useless but they serve a purpose. Defense structures are meant to deter your enemies away from the area. Not kill them. IE: one video on my channel where I use MSAMs against my opponent I actually place down a SAM at my expansion. While my airstrip produces units which can protect the main base my expansion has nothing. Placing down the SAM itself prevented air units from trying to herass that location. It never saw the light of day but then again my opponent couldn't trifle with it.

The missile speeds are working as intended. The bike missiles used to go much faster and because of this wrecked everything they came across with. Right now it gives units a chance to escape bikes rather then "Im spotted and nothing I can do about it.". Of course moving your bikes ahead does take out the units but that is also a mechanic in itself. Actively moving the units around to grant maximum damage is a good thing rather then sitting at max range and easily pulling away. (Specially a good thing vs base herassment situations where often times you could easily feel pinned down at your base)

Flame Tanks are meant for base raiding and infantry. They deal zero damage vs heavy armor types. In C&C95 Flame tanks were really strong in taking out obelisks, AGTs, and yes even turrets. A Flame Tank should not be able to counter a gun turret or even an obelisk. Perhaps the explosion itself can use a buff but doing so would create a large issue in the same way C&C95 flame infantry did. However, I do think Flame Tanks need a slight buff in their damage vs infantry. Apart of the tank fest, that is exactly correct. Flame tanks do not counter other tanks. E3 do and other tanks/arty types.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

Proposed idea for Obelisk:

Initial Charge Delay set to 1 instead of 50.

Reload Delay increased to 65-75 instead of 40.

What this does is the Obelisk will no longer have a first time fire charge and instead shoot instantly when it comes into range. After that it will charge each time for its shots. This way it actually makes more sense for a -150 power consumption as the tower is always on stand by rather then "I must charge to fire!".

With the Reload Delay increase it doesn't affect the rate of fire. In fact this way I can tamper with its firing attacks slower or faster. Set to 65 is slightly faster then what is set to now. This increases the damage it outputs greatly.

Currently right now the charge affect from the Obelisk makes them weaker vs lighter vehicles. However, now with the first shot instantly it is a dangerous weapon vs these vehicles while making it exceptionally strong vs armored units. It is also still a large weakness to infantry which is a good thing.

This requires more testing.

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anjew
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Post by anjew »

Definitely not a bad idea. Would love to test this out.
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PersianImmortal
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Post by PersianImmortal »

I like the obelisk idea too.
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Marn
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Post by Marn »

AoAGeneral1 wrote: Proposed idea for Obelisk:

Initial Charge Delay set to 1 instead of 50.

Reload Delay increased to 65-75 instead of 40.
That would mess up the charge animation, you could hawever make the initial delay 5 or 10 and speed up the charge sequence.
As a reference In my TS mod the charge delay is 20.
I also have 2 charges that shoot so quick that is looks like a single shot, and that helps to split the damage. That way it won't waste an entire shot on a tank that has 10hp left but only half of it. Definitely something to experiment with, although I don't really expect anyone to like the damage split idea.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

Not sure how it messes up the charge animation. At 1 initial and 65 reload it fires as soon as the white bright tip is gone and begins its charge animation again. I don't see any glitches or weird animations happening. (Unless I misunderstood what you mean.)

Having an initial charge set at 1 does other things as well. Not only does it allow the first strike to be instant the Obelisk doesn't derp with its change targets. One example:

Currently right now if you rapidly switch targets the Obelisk never shoots. If you wait half way through a charge and switch targets it resets the charge completely. This loses its over all damage and takes even more time for it to actually fire. Which of course is one reason why its garbage vs light vehicles. This also means if a mammoth tank dies from another unit the Obelisk derps and resets its charge to find another target.

With the initial charge set to 1 and 65 reload even if you spam click everyone it continues to charge up and still fires to the last point clicked. This enables the Obelisk to do a rapid target switch without the charge reset and increases its over all damage incredibly.

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Marn
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Post by Marn »

AoAGeneral1 wrote: Not sure how it messes up the charge animation. At 1 initial and 65 reload it fires as soon as the white bright tip is gone and begins its charge animation again. I don't see any glitches or weird animations happening. (Unless I misunderstood what you mean.)
Yeah that's just the thing, obelisk is supposed to fire when the tip is at its brightest point, hence the charging =p
With 1 delay from what I tested both animation and sound lag badly behind after the shot was already fired.
Doesn't look very "clean" if you know what I mean, and that is why I proposed a way smaller delay instead of getting rid of it entirely.

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AoAGeneral1
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Post by AoAGeneral1 »

Under a series of runs Marn has helped me to fix an idea for it to fire at the brightest tip but it loses the animation to which I would like to keep.

[15:47] <Marn_> yeah it just uses the one frame, to reverse it we need to edit the SHP file (sprite for the obelisk)

[15:47] <Marn_> so that's a bit harder =p

[15:50] <Marn_> Sure thing :) the obelisk actually had more to the animation than we have here, the rings on the bottom of the tower would light up along with the crystal but for some reason was excluded in openra.

Maybe a change can be made to keep the animations and have it fire from the brightest point. I would still like to push forward with the changes since it is a damage buff for the Obelisk.

DEFAULTS:

obli:
idle:
damaged-idle:
Start: 4
active:
Length: 4
Tick: 680
damaged-active:
Start: 4
Length: 4
Tick: 680
dead:
Start: 8
Tick: 800
make: oblimake
Length: 13
Tick: 80
bib: mbOBLI
UseTilesetExtension: true
TilesetOverrides:
WINTER: TEMPERAT
JUNGLE: TEMPERAT
SNOW: TEMPERAT
Length: *
Offset: -1,-3
icon: obliicnh.tem
AddExtension: False

-----------------------

Marn changes:

obli:
idle:
damaged-idle:
Start: 4
active:
Start: 3
Tick: 200
damaged-active:
Start: 7
Tick: 200
dead:
Start: 8
Tick: 800
make: oblimake
Length: 13
Tick: 80
bib: mbOBLI
UseTilesetExtension: true
TilesetOverrides:
WINTER: TEMPERAT
JUNGLE: TEMPERAT
SNOW: TEMPERAT
Length: *
Offset: -1,-3
icon: obliicnh.tem
AddExtension: False

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Murto the Ray
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Post by Murto the Ray »

Would probably be easier to upload them to pastebin.com and use YAML syntax highlighting. Means you don't have length posts of code and its easier to read! :)

EDIT: Here you go

DEFAULT: http://pastebin.com/0Cm4FcAi
MARN: http://pastebin.com/pk4Nkw9N

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Graion Dilach
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Post by Graion Dilach »

If I assume Marn's setup is right, the the default animations with 50 TickRate should suffice.

You also don't need to edit the SHP, there is the explicit Frames: tag which can be used instead of Start/Length, even stuff like Frames: 4, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7 would work.
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Marn
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Post by Marn »

Graion Dilach wrote: If I assume Marn's setup is right, the the default animations with 50 TickRate should suffice.

You also don't need to edit the SHP, there is the explicit Frames: tag which can be used instead of Start/Length, even stuff like Frames: 4, 5, 6, 6, 7, 7 would work.
So you can tell it in what order to render the frames? Even in reverse?

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Graion Dilach
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Post by Graion Dilach »

Sure you can, just list the arbitrary values appropriately. IIRC the last release already has a usecase at this, with skipping some nonremappable frames for the Guard Tower.

With Frames, you can define an explicit order of frames, and no limits such as strict increase/decrease4 exists - just list valid indices though.
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