Soviet tactic -- Flamethrower infantry

zinc · Post by **zinc** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:37 pm

So this seems to be a common tactic used by the soviet side -- send in one or more armoured personnel carriers, filled with flamethrower infantry. Five of them will take out base parts very fast.

Best ways to defend against this tactic?

I think in the original they only became available with a tech centre, (?), whereas with OpenRA they become available when you merely build a flame tower.

KonshusKeboobZionist · Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:35 pm

You're right about the tech tree. I wonder if the techcenter unlocks both flamethrowers and tesla troopers in the aftermath edition

Any anti-infantry is ok imo as long as it is either armored or has a longer range than flamethrowers... They're not that deadly if we consider their slowness. You can keep an arty or APC handy in the base to counter loaded APC and paras, but a single f-turret or pillbox can do the trick.

BaronOfStuff · Post by **BaronOfStuff** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:14 pm

KonshusKeboobZionist wrote: ↑You're right about the tech tree. I wonder if the techcenter unlocks both flamethrowers and tesla troopers in the aftermath edition

Nope... just a Tesla Coil will unlock Shock Troopers in RA95. And they outclass Flamethrowers in every way!

JOo · Post by **JOo** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:31 am

when you play as allies , best (early) defense : Pillbox
just hold a finished pillbox in the defense tree as often as you can , until your first hind is up ... as soon as the flamethrower infantry jumps out , place it near them

keep sure after placing the pillbox , to give em the flamethrower-infantry as target ... because if you place it wrong , pillbox will lock on the apc first ...

after your first hind is up , theres no way your enemy can succeed with that tactic ... but always keep an eye on your base ... some players try it later on in the game

last one ... (works with every faction) ... mines ... , 1 mine can instant kill a apc

when you playing soviet , flame towers and teslas will do the job ... same as pillbox goes for the flametower , manually target the infantry that jumps out of the apc ...
snipers could also work probably

edit : for allies a arty inside your base is also a good choice

...

JOo · Post by **JOo** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:23 pm

i have made a ticket on github to discuss that problem

https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/7503

zoidyberg · Post by **zoidyberg** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:57 pm

If I see APCs rolling into my base during the first 3 minutes of a game, I just let them destroy the entire base, congratulate them for their original thinking, explain that nobody wants to play a 3-minute game, and then go find another game with better players.

JOo · Post by **JOo** » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:34 pm

im sorry for that , zoidberg

ill try to keep the discussion about it going and im sure we will find a good solution for the problem ... im not a fan of "nerfing" or "buffing" units constantly all the time ... because it changes the game experiment in every release ...

but the obvious things ... tactics that get used over and over again which you cant counter or only with sacrifices or luck ... (regardless if soviet ur allies) should get fixed imo

zoidyberg · Post by **zoidyberg** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:22 am

Every douche of a player uses the early flamethrower rush. It sucks the enjoyment out of the game. Why bother to plan out attacks when you can just throw a bunch of flamethrowers at the opposing team and wipe them out?

zinc · Post by **zinc** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:28 pm

I don't see this as so much of a problem now.

Yes, it sometimes works. But it can often be countered.

zoidyberg · Post by **zoidyberg** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:23 pm

An easy fix for this would be to require the radar dome + flame tower prior to building the unit.

JOo · Post by **JOo** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:39 pm

@zinc :

it sometimes works ? i basicly works with a 95% success chance ... with every +apc filled with flamethrowers the chance gets better ... and it requires no skills or experience to perform ...

zinc · Post by **zinc** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:03 pm

JOo wrote: ↑@zinc :

it sometimes works ? i basicly works with a 95% success chance ... with every +apc filled with flamethrowers the chance gets better ... and it requires no skills or experience to perform ...

A pill box can stop it. As you mentioned yourself you need to make sure you target the troops.

Or have some troops spread near vital base parts.

noobmapmaker · Post by **noobmapmaker** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:12 pm

exactly! and you have got to have defenses in your base anyway for all other sneaky attacks. Imo this tactic with flamethrowers is just one like the others, but perhaps easier to perform. Yet still... you got to do it. And... you have to defend for it.

A possibility however would be to tone down the effectiveness of flamethrowers versus buildings. I think that one flamethrowers destroys any building before 3/4 mammoths, or 15 light tanks... thats a bit to much. Perhaps tone their effectiveness vs buildings done to 90% what it is today? Still very effective, but not THAT effective,

JOo · Post by **JOo** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:55 pm

i would suggest you guys read what i did write on the github issue ...

https://github.com/OpenRA/OpenRA/issues/7503

"it might be possible to defend 1 apc with 5 flamethrowers , but even then it can be really hard , if you dont expect the apc ... (and seriously ... people should have the chance to to setup a quick defense for every sneaky/easy rush-tactics) "

zinc wrote: ↑A pill box can stop it. As you mentioned yourself you need to make sure you target the troops.

thats is correct , but that works only for 1 filled apc (and a conyard will barely survive)

Pillboxes have the problem to get triggered by the APC , but does no damage whatsoever ... instead , the owner of the Pillbox has to wait until the enemy "unloads" the flamethrowers ... and then he has to manually target every enemy .... after every dead target , the pillbox-targeting will jump back to the enemy Apc (depends on the randomness of the "cargo drop" ... ) and you have to pick the next target again ...

the pillbox-cannon needs for every passenger 2 shots ... (the flamethrower might have less health then a e1 ... but its enough so the pillbox needs still 2 bursts to bring a flamethrower down)

a pillbox does 30 damage on infantry ...
e1 has 50hp
flamethrower has 40hp

this has a hudge impact when 5 enemy flamethrowers get unloadet right beside a Construction Yard
______________________________

and now ... dont imagine this with 1 apc and 5 flamethrowers ... imagine this with 3-4 apcs ... filled with 15-20 flamethrowers ...

Post by **Murto the Ray** » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:41 pm

This tactic works both ways; they can either get a lot of damage done to your base or you destroy their rush and suddenly a majority of the start of the game was a complete waste for them. In my own opinion you should always have enough units out at the start of the game to stop a rush or at least delay one long enough to get some more units out.

noobmapmaker wrote: ↑ exactly! and you have got to have defenses in your base anyway for all other sneaky attacks. Imo this tactic with flamethrowers is just one like the others, but perhaps easier to perform. Yet still... you got to do it. And... you have to defend for it.

A possibility however would be to tone down the effectiveness of flamethrowers versus buildings. I think that one flamethrowers destroys any building before 3/4 mammoths, or 15 light tanks... thats a bit to much. Perhaps tone their effectiveness vs buildings done to 90% what it is today? Still very effective, but not THAT effective,

I have to agree that flamethrowers should do a lot less damage to buildings; after all if i used a flamethrower on the side of my own house then hardly anything would happen..... Then again this is OpenRA and they probably have Plasma Flamethrowers or something.....

Plus is this not incomparable to the phase transport-tanya "rush" that the allies can do later game but with larger consequences - as an allies player i'd gladly trade off the flamer rush for the phase transport-tanya rush

Also, thanks for creating that ticket on github; i agree on the issue of defensive structures not prioritizing targets as they should.