OpenRA

I think shroud definitely should be on by default. I agree with MicroBit, especially on that it would take away a rewarding exploration aspect of the game.

If the server settings are preserved in the next release then that would be a win for everybody.

As for turning the crate off by default, I think would be a huge mistake. The large majority of players are playing OpenRA for fun. Crates are fun! Crated are the RNG that lessens the pressure off everybody, signaling that it's a game not meant to take seriously.

SoScared wrote: ↑ As for turning the crate off by default, I think would be a huge mistake. The large majority of players are playing OpenRA for fun. Crates are fun! Crated are the RNG that lessens the pressure off everybody, signaling that it's a game not meant to take seriously.

Same argument could be made for shroud (minus RNG)

Explored map is meh. If games are actually decided on a misplaced-by-a-cell refineries, then the gameplay is too punishing on user errors, and increasing the chances of turning tables should be the solution, not explored map.

If I may add my 2 cents here

IMHO, Shroud is bad. Really bad ^^

I agree to all the already cited con- arguments (players who don't know/remember the map, capturable oil/buildings, detailed positioning, shroud resetting ...), and I want to add a few more :

- Teamwork : JOo cited the example of a player giving directions to newbies for an early positioning. But for me, that's an argument against shroud: you can't ping so. directly into the shroud, you have to keep pinging him until he arrives to the wanted place, which is simply annoying for everyone. When you want to say "Go mid", where is mid ?

- Psychological effect : more than only not knowing the map, I think shroud adds a scary/unconfortable effect, that may make you play on the defensive. I've seen so many new players building tons of units, staying in base, partly because of the shroud, because they didn't have a clue where to go.

- Spending early soldiers : it forces to spend an early barracks + soldiers, or another scouting unit, which may not be on your build order.

- Comfort / esthetics : AFAIK I don't know any modern game that uses shroud, which is esthetically ugly as hell, IMO.
For me, it is more an historical aspect we kept of the original game. Maybe it had its meaning at that time, especially as it was more Singleplayer oriented. However, we don't have to stick to the old era. Otherwise, we would still have no Fog, like in the old RA or Tiberian Sun, which would have been horrible !

- Gap tactics : a final detail but an explored map make the gap tactics more meaningful. All players would see that black spot (might be mobile), meaning that something is hidden underneath (or not !). Also, a base full of Gap Generators will be secure, but on the other hand hints to a dangerous/defensive enemy (esp. for FFA).
With no shroud, we would be sure all players would have the same information.

Frenzy: when you say fog, do you really mean shroud? Shroud is the black stuff covering the map at the start, which is removed when you enable "Explored Map". Fog is the translucent stuff that you can see terrain and "frozen" buildings through, but not units.

I mean the black ugly opaque smoke ^_^ yes sorry "shroud" Edited.

Frenzy wrote: ↑Comfort / esthetics : AFAIK I don't know any modern game that uses shroud, which is esthetically ugly as hell, IMO.

Funny I was going to say this but don't the civilisation games still use shroud?

r34ch wrote: ↑-Snip-

Arent the Civ games also randomly generated? That would mean no one is at a disadvantage or advantage due to this.

Murto the Ray wrote: ↑ That would mean no one is at a disadvantage or advantage due to this.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. If you spawn in a corner or not near to resources then you are disadvantaged.

I think Civilization uses shroud to replicate the idea of not knowing what the world looks like, since you are just a starting civilisation. So it's game specific.
Also Civilization isn't an RTS game.

anjew wrote: ↑-Snip-

The comment says due to the shroud. Not that no one is at a disadvantage.

The core argument for removing shroud by default looks to be about promoting the competetive aspect of the game - how it balances the game for new players and allows for everyone to focus more on strategy. I believe the vast majority of new and casual players don't really care much about this aspect when they join in to share a game of ORA with their friends.

Shroud provides mystery and exploration. Fun! Competetive players often checks 'explored map' for competetive games, when facing new maps or perhaps upon player requests. I've gotten used to explored maps due to frequently being a spectator, where 'explored map' is a huge advantage.

It's possible that enabling 'explored map' by default is consequencial mostly for competetive players - not casual players, and possibly makes ORA less fun to play when it's focus shifts more over to competetive play, "fair and balanced".

Also I'd pay more attention to the thread discussion rather than the poll, especially given its' start bias, shaming newbies with the 'no' option. Why would anyone wanna vote for that. Perhaps set up a new neutral poll.

As a new player myself I believe that the best way to help is to just give general advice as opposed to making it easier. New players will eventually get familiar with the maps and learn from their own mistakes. Having to scout your own surroundings I think is a fundamental part of the game and good practice to adopt. Having the map explored would encourage laziness in new players imo ie. Not naturally setting up a base perimeter with rifle men because you feel you don't have too because it's already explored? Idk that's just my opinion. Also I think that no matter how many times you have played a map you don't know it with 100% certainty. You have a very good knowledge of the map knowing choke points, ore locations etc. but the difference in knowing its general location in the shroud as opposed to knowing with absolute certainty is a difference in clicks. 1 click when it's explored with no need of micro management as opposed to manually having to pin point it in the shroud. Idk Food for thought

Peace

One legit complaint about the shroud is that it can pretty annoying placing your first few buildings on an unfamiliar map (especially when you're not sure how far away the ore is). Maybe a fix for that issue is increasing the vision of a deployed MCV?

One legit complaint about the shroud is that it can pretty annoying to place your first few buildings on an unfamiliar map (especially when you're not sure how far away the ore is).

Maybe a fix for this is increasing the vision of a deployed MCV?

christian wrote: ↑I think it's actually more important to have shroud off when playing competitively.

I dont really care what happens to the defaults but shroud is very suited to competitive play. It promotes knowledge and skill as well as weeding out the people who don't know how to play a map and if you can't practice a map to the point of knowing where your ore or oil is then you probably aren't a competitive player. Shroud has never stopped me from making a move or hindered my engineer from getting oil unless I really didn't know the map