Lets discuss Shock Troopers (Red Alert)
A discussion of thoughts and feelings about shock trooper
-
Murto the Ray
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:34 pm
Nice move, keep things simple as it is easier to adapt to one change than many at a time.r34ch wrote: ↑ Ok so to simplify things, this PR will only adjust shock troopers.
100hp -> 60hp
If that is not enough, more adjustments can come in later PRs.
Love it. I think that would also justify keeping the $400 price tag.
I'm hoping a future light tank buff means something like a small increase in sight range (+1, +2 tops).
Also really looking forward to buffing my all-time-favorite unit, the longbow. IMO the only buff it needs is something like +30-50% HP. With that I wouldn't protest a slight cost increase of +10-20%. I feel like the other properties of the longbow is good enough for it's role.
The only thing that bothers me atm, besides the shock troopers, is the sight range of the chinook. I don't think it should have the advantage of being a supreme scout/spotter, giving it almost a 0% risk on harassment. The use of the chinook should be based more on having a prerequisite knowledge of the map and enemy. IMO chinooks should have a sight range of +10 tops (same as hinds).
-
Murto the Ray
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:34 pm
This would also encourage use of longbows for vision, since they have the same sight range as chinooks at the moment.SoScared wrote: ↑ The only thing that bothers me atm, besides the shock troopers, is the sight range of the chinook. I don't think it should have the advantage of being a supreme scout/spotter, giving it almost a 0% risk on harassment. The use of the chinook should be based more on having a prerequisite knowledge of the map and enemy. IMO chinooks should have a sight range of +10 tops (same as hinds).
feel free to test the shocktrooper
http://resource.openra.net/maps/5948
- Changed shocktroopers health from 100 to 60
http://resource.openra.net/maps/5948
- Changed shocktroopers health from 100 to 60
Hi ladies'n'gents!
Apologies in advance for the long post; I had a good balance discussion with V-Christian a couple days back
and wanted to share a rough draft of the gameplay changes I could come up with.
Keep in mind that these were just suggestions and ideas, to be taken with a grain of salt,
and in no way do I think all of these changes should go live without discussing them beforehand.
Here's my list:
Allies:
Medics: Change target behaviour so they don't follow up on attack orders to go full melee form.
Instead, attack orders will now set them to safeguard the closest friendly infantry.
Reason: Simple usability improvement.
Engineers: Can now detect mines and stealth at 3 cells range.
Reason: To give them a role other than capturing and to counter the buffed minelayers.
Tanya: Fix her target behaviour so that upon receiving damage she no longer crawls for 1-2 more cells before retaliating.
Reason: Simple usability improvement.
Rangers: Range increased by 1 cell to improve their performance versus infantry.
Reason: RIght now, Rangers are just not usable in combat situations because they go full on melee mode.
This change seeks to remedy that.
Minelayers: Mines will no longer be triggered by your own units.
Reason: Mines being triggered by friendlies doesn't make sense to me.
Light Tanks: Slightly increase the damage done to heavy armor (but not to concrete armor) so they can at least win versus an APC.
Increase vision range by 1 cell.
Reason: RIght now, they are too expensive for what they do and never used beyond the earlygame.
A slight buff would push them into viability.
Chrono Tanks: Armor type changed from Light to Medium.
Reason: Right now, they are hardcountered by the ubiquitous Flak Trucks and therefore borderline unusable.
Artillery: Increase their godawful turn rate. Increase the price by 100 to compensate and to stop artillery spam.
Reason: Imo, Artilleries are not fun to use due to their static nature. I would make them more expensive, but buff their usability in return.
Chinook: Sight radius decreased to 4 cells.
Reason: Transports should not be self-sufficient scouts, as there needs to be a risk associated with drops.
Longbows: Rate of fire up to 150%. Missile speed up to 150%. (The actual damage in an ammo clip is unchanged.)
Reason: MIGs can outrun your missiles, making the longbow useless at its intended role.
Gunboats: Depth charge throwing speed up to 200% to turn gunboats into dedicated anti-sub units.
Cost up to 700 to compensate.
Reason: To give them a purpose. Right now, they are subpar.
Gun Turrets: Damage versus concrete decreased.
Reason: Basepushing should be nerfed in general, imo.
Soviets:
Dogs: Fix target behaviour so that they kill infantry by directly jumping at it as opposed to jumping at the cell the infantry is currently occupying,
preventing dogs from "missing" their target.
Reason: Simple usability improvement.
Engineers: Can now detect mines and stealth at 3 cells range.
Reason: To give them a role other than capturing and to counter the buffed minelayers.
Hijackers: Fix target behaviour so they directly enter a vehicle instead of running at the cell the vehicle is occupying,
preventing the hijacker from "missing" a target. Speed up to 125 %.
Also, Hijackers enter stealth when not moving for 5 seconds.
Reason: This would open up a lot of potential great plays, sneaking them behind enemy lines to steal harvesters or battle tanks.
Right now, they can't catch up to anything.
Tesla Troopers: Health down from 100 to 60. Range down to 5 cells.
Reason: I don't think many people would argue that in their current state they are overpowered
Minelayers: Mines will no longer be triggered by your own units.
Reason: Mines being triggered by friendlies doesn't make sense to me.
Flak Trucks: Range decreased by 1 to prevent them from shooting targets that are out of sight.
Reason: The range glitch makes them a bit too good at kiting.
Heavy Tank: Price down to 1100.
Reason: To encourage more heavy armor play in a heavy armor faction.
Tesla Tank: Turn rate increased to make it into a hit'n'run unit.
Reason: Giving the Russians a toy that has the potential for outplays and a high skillcap.
Yak: Revert the changes in height to bring suicide yaks back.
Reason: I'm not 100% sure on whether I liked or hated Yak suicides, so this one is up for debate.
Mig: Cost decrease to 1800.
Reason: MIGs are good, but too expensive for what they do.
Missile Subs: Can now target air units, but the spread still stays the same.
That way, the Sovs gain naval anti-air, but the missiles can be dodged by good players.
Reason: Giving the Soviets their long-awaited AA over bodies of water,
as right now, they can't deal with seaborne HINDs.
Iron Curtain: Charge time increased to 2.30 minutes.
Reason: Imo, the IC is significantly stronger than the Chronosphere in almost all situations.
Tesla Coil: Damage versus concrete decreased.
Reason: To nerf basepushing.
That's it for now
Apologies in advance for the long post; I had a good balance discussion with V-Christian a couple days back
and wanted to share a rough draft of the gameplay changes I could come up with.
Keep in mind that these were just suggestions and ideas, to be taken with a grain of salt,
and in no way do I think all of these changes should go live without discussing them beforehand.
Here's my list:
Allies:
Medics: Change target behaviour so they don't follow up on attack orders to go full melee form.
Instead, attack orders will now set them to safeguard the closest friendly infantry.
Reason: Simple usability improvement.
Engineers: Can now detect mines and stealth at 3 cells range.
Reason: To give them a role other than capturing and to counter the buffed minelayers.
Tanya: Fix her target behaviour so that upon receiving damage she no longer crawls for 1-2 more cells before retaliating.
Reason: Simple usability improvement.
Rangers: Range increased by 1 cell to improve their performance versus infantry.
Reason: RIght now, Rangers are just not usable in combat situations because they go full on melee mode.
This change seeks to remedy that.
Minelayers: Mines will no longer be triggered by your own units.
Reason: Mines being triggered by friendlies doesn't make sense to me.
Light Tanks: Slightly increase the damage done to heavy armor (but not to concrete armor) so they can at least win versus an APC.
Increase vision range by 1 cell.
Reason: RIght now, they are too expensive for what they do and never used beyond the earlygame.
A slight buff would push them into viability.
Chrono Tanks: Armor type changed from Light to Medium.
Reason: Right now, they are hardcountered by the ubiquitous Flak Trucks and therefore borderline unusable.
Artillery: Increase their godawful turn rate. Increase the price by 100 to compensate and to stop artillery spam.
Reason: Imo, Artilleries are not fun to use due to their static nature. I would make them more expensive, but buff their usability in return.
Chinook: Sight radius decreased to 4 cells.
Reason: Transports should not be self-sufficient scouts, as there needs to be a risk associated with drops.
Longbows: Rate of fire up to 150%. Missile speed up to 150%. (The actual damage in an ammo clip is unchanged.)
Reason: MIGs can outrun your missiles, making the longbow useless at its intended role.
Gunboats: Depth charge throwing speed up to 200% to turn gunboats into dedicated anti-sub units.
Cost up to 700 to compensate.
Reason: To give them a purpose. Right now, they are subpar.
Gun Turrets: Damage versus concrete decreased.
Reason: Basepushing should be nerfed in general, imo.
Soviets:
Dogs: Fix target behaviour so that they kill infantry by directly jumping at it as opposed to jumping at the cell the infantry is currently occupying,
preventing dogs from "missing" their target.
Reason: Simple usability improvement.
Engineers: Can now detect mines and stealth at 3 cells range.
Reason: To give them a role other than capturing and to counter the buffed minelayers.
Hijackers: Fix target behaviour so they directly enter a vehicle instead of running at the cell the vehicle is occupying,
preventing the hijacker from "missing" a target. Speed up to 125 %.
Also, Hijackers enter stealth when not moving for 5 seconds.
Reason: This would open up a lot of potential great plays, sneaking them behind enemy lines to steal harvesters or battle tanks.
Right now, they can't catch up to anything.
Tesla Troopers: Health down from 100 to 60. Range down to 5 cells.
Reason: I don't think many people would argue that in their current state they are overpowered
Minelayers: Mines will no longer be triggered by your own units.
Reason: Mines being triggered by friendlies doesn't make sense to me.
Flak Trucks: Range decreased by 1 to prevent them from shooting targets that are out of sight.
Reason: The range glitch makes them a bit too good at kiting.
Heavy Tank: Price down to 1100.
Reason: To encourage more heavy armor play in a heavy armor faction.
Tesla Tank: Turn rate increased to make it into a hit'n'run unit.
Reason: Giving the Russians a toy that has the potential for outplays and a high skillcap.
Yak: Revert the changes in height to bring suicide yaks back.
Reason: I'm not 100% sure on whether I liked or hated Yak suicides, so this one is up for debate.
Mig: Cost decrease to 1800.
Reason: MIGs are good, but too expensive for what they do.
Missile Subs: Can now target air units, but the spread still stays the same.
That way, the Sovs gain naval anti-air, but the missiles can be dodged by good players.
Reason: Giving the Soviets their long-awaited AA over bodies of water,
as right now, they can't deal with seaborne HINDs.
Iron Curtain: Charge time increased to 2.30 minutes.
Reason: Imo, the IC is significantly stronger than the Chronosphere in almost all situations.
Tesla Coil: Damage versus concrete decreased.
Reason: To nerf basepushing.
That's it for now
These are some great lists FiveAces and Christian. I think you should consider starting a new thread with these.
I agree with about every point posted. However my thoughts so far:
Rather I'd like to see:
Increase health from 120HP to 150HP
Increase cost from $2000 to $2100
Reason: The current role of the Longbow is map control, air and ground, but also taking out exposed/damaged armor, less base sniping. IMO it just has a problem with durability. They need to have a better opportunity to pull out once in range of AA given their cost and demand on micro. Their slow missiles still prevents them from pwning targets with AA.
With that speed buff does it have to be invisible?
I agree with about every point posted. However my thoughts so far:
FiveAces wrote: ↑Longbows: Rate of fire up to 150%. Missile speed up to 150%. (The actual damage in an ammo clip is unchanged.)
Reason: MIGs can outrun your missiles, making the longbow useless at its intended role.
For the most part Longbow missiles feels slow against everything but I think it's ok for MiG's to dodge them. By default MiG's cannot anticipate Longbows without the Allied GPS so giving Longbows guaranteed hits on MiGs feels a bit discouraging, especially when we want to see more MiGs in the field. Increased missile speed and rate of fire could also risk making the Longbow an unstoppable mid-game harvester and structure sniper.christian wrote: ↑Longbows: Increase speed of missiles from 384 to 768 and a price reduction from 2000 to 1800
Rather I'd like to see:
Increase health from 120HP to 150HP
Increase cost from $2000 to $2100
Reason: The current role of the Longbow is map control, air and ground, but also taking out exposed/damaged armor, less base sniping. IMO it just has a problem with durability. They need to have a better opportunity to pull out once in range of AA given their cost and demand on micro. Their slow missiles still prevents them from pwning targets with AA.
As a macro player this scares the shit out of me. Cheap invisible speedy gonzales units robbing me for every harvester I gotFiveAces wrote: ↑Hijackers: Fix target behaviour so they directly enter a vehicle instead of running at the cell the vehicle is occupying, preventing the hijacker from "missing" a target. Speed up to 125%. Also, Hijackers enter stealth when not moving for 5 seconds.
Reason: This would open up a lot of potential great plays, sneaking them behind enemy lines to steal harvesters or battle tanks. Right now, they can't catch up to anything.
With that speed buff does it have to be invisible?One of my favourites. Although it won't strongly compete Allied air dominance, this would punish Allied players who just let their aircrafts hover passively over sea, playing whack-a-mole with soviet subs. IMO this change would simply make the game better.FiveAces wrote: ↑Missile Subs: Can now target air units, but the spread still stays the same. That way, the Sovs gain naval anti-air, but the missiles can be dodged by good players.
Reason: Giving the Soviets their long-awaited AA over bodies of water, as right now, they can't deal with seaborne HINDs.
Well not that easily. On direct interception, if you babysit your migs you can turn and avoid the Longbows by a few good cells, but frequently it happens with at least one of them critically damaged. I just feel like the migs should be zoned out like this rather than be shot down immediately when in range. As for the HP increase from 120 to 150 it still would be too low to cost-effectively engage around AA, as it should off course. I want to give them a better chance to pull out alive from AA, given their cost. As of today, players would rather just spam HINDS (100HP) instead of investing in longbows.christian wrote: ↑^^ MIG's got 12 vision and they can easily outfly longbows. With 120HP Longsbows already got more HP than any other air unit.
I'd also favor a HP increase + slight cost increase over a mere cost reduction, to keep the longbow a strong and appealing mid- to late-game unit and avoid spam.
When I first started playing, I thought the flame troopers were overpowered. Now I don't think they are really a problem at all. There are ways to counter when you know what you are doing.
Later I thought that artillery was overpowered against soviets. Now I doubt that is really the case either. It depends on the map and the tactics that play out but I don't think you can balance for every possible situation. (Or you need to worry about that.) Broadly speaking, both sides can be enjoyed and played against each other.
When it comes to shock troopers, they can certainly appear overpowered because they can cut through base structures and base defences very fast in the right circumstances. You can just eat someone's base and end the game that way. However, the real test is 1v1 games between good players of equivalent-ish skill. I'm not sure Russia is always going to be winning because of them. I still think they should have their health lowered but whether there is a major issue here I'm not sure.
I speak of "1v1" games here because it's difficult to get proper balance in team games. There may however be potential team tactics that are relevant to whether something is overpowered or not.
Anyway, that's my thoughts on it right now.
Later I thought that artillery was overpowered against soviets. Now I doubt that is really the case either. It depends on the map and the tactics that play out but I don't think you can balance for every possible situation. (Or you need to worry about that.) Broadly speaking, both sides can be enjoyed and played against each other.
When it comes to shock troopers, they can certainly appear overpowered because they can cut through base structures and base defences very fast in the right circumstances. You can just eat someone's base and end the game that way. However, the real test is 1v1 games between good players of equivalent-ish skill. I'm not sure Russia is always going to be winning because of them. I still think they should have their health lowered but whether there is a major issue here I'm not sure.
I speak of "1v1" games here because it's difficult to get proper balance in team games. There may however be potential team tactics that are relevant to whether something is overpowered or not.
Anyway, that's my thoughts on it right now.
-
Murto the Ray
- Posts: 487
- Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:34 pm
I'm with zinc on this one; the more small tactical and strategical progressions you make as a player the more easily you are able to overcome tactics that you may have previously seen as OP such as flamer rushes, arty spam and eventually flak truck massing will be overcome as well. I am not against buffing and nerfing units because they are either too powerful or not powerful enough in general but when you want units nerfed just because there is a unit used a lot at the moment which doesn't make it viable then that's just not right, in fact it is called a counter.
Here are the issues i have with the balance changes put forward:
-Chrono Tanks: Im not an allies player but that seems like you are complaining about the current meta rather than actually thinking aboutthe consequences of such a change. What would counter Chrono Tanks if they were boosted to medium armour? I have no issues about reducing the cost of Chrono Tanks but reduce their health if you do, they are pretty difficult to take down otherwise, especially with their blink ability.
-Gunboats: i'd like to see them have to face their target as well so that they cant just kite subs the whole time, soviets dont have a counter to that in the early game.
-Yak: i like the height change because it allows for yaks to take down arty and inf further back than the closest AA turret.
-Missle Sub: They are damn expensive and pretty weak so why not make it so their missles cant be dodged by air.
Iron Curtain: Chrono is just as powerful, an MCV chrono'd in after a nuke or simply at a weak rearward position can be much more damaging. Perhaps regular Chronos should charge faster instead so allies can do more with kill zones etc. and it would make teching for allies more viable.
My personal change would be for SAM Sights to have a larger range with a price increase to $800.
Here are the issues i have with the balance changes put forward:
-Chrono Tanks: Im not an allies player but that seems like you are complaining about the current meta rather than actually thinking aboutthe consequences of such a change. What would counter Chrono Tanks if they were boosted to medium armour? I have no issues about reducing the cost of Chrono Tanks but reduce their health if you do, they are pretty difficult to take down otherwise, especially with their blink ability.
-Gunboats: i'd like to see them have to face their target as well so that they cant just kite subs the whole time, soviets dont have a counter to that in the early game.
-Yak: i like the height change because it allows for yaks to take down arty and inf further back than the closest AA turret.
-Missle Sub: They are damn expensive and pretty weak so why not make it so their missles cant be dodged by air.
Iron Curtain: Chrono is just as powerful, an MCV chrono'd in after a nuke or simply at a weak rearward position can be much more damaging. Perhaps regular Chronos should charge faster instead so allies can do more with kill zones etc. and it would make teching for allies more viable.
My personal change would be for SAM Sights to have a larger range with a price increase to $800.
If Missils Sub volleys were to track air targets, this would give the Sovs total air dominance, as they already have Flaks as a super efficient ground-to-air deterrent.
This, coupled with the insane range of Missile Subs, would push Allied air builds out of viability.
Plus, think of it: They cost the same as cruisers do, have similar damage and scatter but are way faster and stealthed.
Now, combine this with uninterceptible long range AA salvos, and they would outclass cruisers in every single field.
This, coupled with the insane range of Missile Subs, would push Allied air builds out of viability.
Plus, think of it: They cost the same as cruisers do, have similar damage and scatter but are way faster and stealthed.
Now, combine this with uninterceptible long range AA salvos, and they would outclass cruisers in every single field.